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Shooting the back of silhouettes and facing

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I've had it happen to me a couple of times, normally it's the Rui Shi's fat ass getting picked on when its cover is relatively small.
     
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  2. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    I quite often try to avoid doing this even though the rules allow it. Or I even just let my opponent adjust their model even though the rules wouldn't allow them to.
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Only unit I have that would semi-reliably be able to do the jump-and-shoot-model's-rear is the Shikami and even then I'd probably not drop this manoeuvre on my friends - it's so dirty or gamey somehow -,-;;
     
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Not really, I would have to have the front half in an angle, instead of paralell with the wall for that to happen. The only way to generate a "shadow" here is to close Tarik to the corner where the Rodok is, so close in fact that Tarik could try to engage with a -3 if he wanted. It's good for breaking enemy Suppresive Fire, however.

    If you place the miniature facing the wall, then there is no way for an enemy miniature to see the back of Tarik when coming out of the corner of that building, unless it's a strangely shaped building that is.

    as long as the shape is like " [ " I can see no geometrical way for a miniature coming from the corner to not be seen by the wall-facing model, unless we are talking about insanely long walls with a firelane so long a sniper would be effective from one side to the other :S
     
  5. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    It really depends on the lenght of the wall, your position along it and the angle your opponent is attacking from. Sunday, I had my Magister knigth shot in the back by Hector placed in the front arc as the first part of the base he saw was the rear arc. This happens event more often with REMs and TAGs. So be careful about placing and watch your back.
    But this can't happen if you're popping along a corner. You need to be far away of the said corner in order to achieve this.
     
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  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's trivial. The trick is not to pop the corner.

    The solution is to only cover one corner not try to cover both.
     

    Attached Files:

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  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    The moral of the story is that a single trooper can't cover both corners at once. :disappointed:
     
  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I think the only way for your drawing to actually happen would be if there were another blue model between the blue one and the corner, frankly (so Fireteam hunting, I'd say).
    Remember the red model would need to be a little more to the front, since you need a minimal amount of the silhouette for the LoF to be valid (the squares on the silhouette templates). That limits greatly this tactic, and as I said before (in the photo I placed yesterday) you need to have the target model close enough to the corner, but without immediately peeking, he could even declare Engage.

    A S2 guarding both corners is possible. Just place it in one corner, so the required amount of silhouette for both models is really hard (or impossible) to place avoiding mutual LoF... You are so close to one corner you will always see whatever peeks, and with a slight angle you will also cover the other corner from anything peeking.
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's really not. I literally just showed you the geometry. And you can argue that the red trooper needs to be marginally further forward, but there is a significant amount of the rear of the base still showing. It's not even close.
     
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  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    No, it doesn't. In the diagram, Red has LoF to a 3x3mm section of Blue's back arc. Red has LoF, Blue does not.

    EDIT - in case of confusion, Red can see from any size area, the 3x3mm minimum is how much you need to see of the target.
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    And basic geometry says that this is almost impossible in both directions at once.
     
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  12. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I would agree with ijw on this one. At least that's how we play it. A S2 model might be able to do it in a small space. But not larger base model or if shot from far enough.

    And if that means no more mini facing a wall that is a good thing (which always seemed weird and counterintuitive to me).
     
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  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    LoF.jpg
    Kinda weird, but I don't remember anything about forcing the attacking model to expose a minimal amount of his silhouette, so I can't (from a rules standpoint) disagree here :/

    If I'm close to the corner but not peeking, with the front angled so my LoF grows the farther you go to the other corner, I can. The attached image is a poor render, but I think it conveys my idea.

    LoF.jpg
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    upload_2018-2-28_22-32-39.png

    A model that is past the dotted line but not the solid black line will see the red model without reciprocal LOF.
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    rotate the pokeball clockwise a little more. I made that picture in 3 spare minutes, to convey the idea, not to set The Law, you know ;)
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    That just makes it even more vulnerable on the left side. :(
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You'd need to rotate it enough that there is not a 3mm perpendicular line fully inside the Pokeball's white area to the Right Blue LOF - at that point the Left Blue will be able to get a 3mm or higher perpendicular line fully inside the Pokeball's white area.

    And this should be regardless of size of building, though if the building is under 30mm wide there might be a way...
     
  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    That's why I place this in the "not worth the hassle". There is a way to place the pokeball in a position and angle so it covers both sides, but you need to look for it... the same way the blue balls can show themselves enough to shoot at one member of a fireteam or just one ARO piece, or...
    And we go to the "play by intent" discussion straight on -.-U
     
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  19. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    No, there isn't. It's basic geometry. :(
     
  20. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    We solved this issue with a house rule. When checking line of fire we consider models to be 2 dimensional cardboards without volume. Face the silhouette towards the attacker, if you can see the silhouette you can shoot it and if you're in his front arc he can shoot back.
    Otherwise it doesn't even need to be superjump troops. Any troop that is walking rooftops looking at targets below that are partially obscured by the roof could do this. A houserule isn't the ideal solution, but the alternative was much worse.
     
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