You're not hitting him with Shock though.. that's the point you're still not getting. The moment you hit something with STR, your ammo type changes to Normal. Normal has no additional effects. Your way of thinking is fundementally wrong. You're saying "it's Shock, wich STR ignores the straight to dead but not the red box!" It isn't though. It's just normal ammo, the same way EXP is normal ammo when shooting a Cameronian etc. There's litterally no red box to adhere to. Stop talking about the red box.
Look at how the drop bears entry is formatted. IT CLEARLY PUTS THE RED BOX UNDER THE EFFECTS HEADING. Hence it is the same for shock special ammunition. IT JUST SO HAPPENS THEY RAN OUT OF SPACE ON PAGE 114 IS THE MOST OBVIOUS ANSWER. THE RED BOX IS NOT SEPARATE FROM THE EFFECTS IT IS INCLUDED TOGETHER WITH THE EFFECTS.
@Zewrath Obviously I disagree. Essentially we're getting some Spanish TO's house rules foisted upon the global community and, surprise surprise, they make little sense in the context of the written rules. Essentially I'm saying that because of the way the bullet points are structured, there's an implication that troopers with STR treat shock ammo as normal ammo *only for the purposes of the specific effect of instant death.* Otherwise, the way that would be expressed is to have the note about troopers with STR *not in the list of bullet points.*
@Dannyboy89 The indentation on these red boxes changes based off of whether it's its own skill (like Drop Bears) or just a rules entry (like Shock Ammo). That's unconvincing.
Whelp can't help you there, If u looked at all the other similar entries for the red boxes, they all follow the same format and fit under the effects headings and u refuse to even consider how the ENTIRE BOOK IS CLEARLY FORMATTED IN THAT WAY. Then all I got to say is, in your viewpoint logic and common sense doesn't apply. GG BROS.
Well then. I'm going to be diplomatic here and call it "agree to disagree". Although I do share the frustration of why CB havn't picked up on this yet and I really feel they dropped the ball on the recent FAQ rulings that just makes no sense to me (see FAQ about changing the definition of B2B, spawning the stupidity of "Stick people on walls- engage". The hitting people in the back arc, even though their facing is correct and my personal favourite, regarding Pilots and their profile. Which is so headscratching and game breaking, that most people just avoid dismounting altogether because no one knows what to do at this point).
Sometimes, some people have the great foresight to realize everyone is wrong. Like James Stack who predicted the housing market crash in 2005 when housing prices were an all time high. Everyone laughed at him, but he made logical sense and was laughed at. this is not the case for @Hecaton as evidenced by the community's posts with copious amounts of rules references and logical deductions.
Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on @Hecaton , but does not allow @Hecaton 's will to be imposed on him. ~ Sun Tzu,
The rules forum is a whole heap easier to parse if you just ignore Hecaton. He's occasionally correct, but his intransigence in the face of 'received understanding of the rules' makes discussions an exercise in frustration.
Moderator Guys a few things, name calling, huge text and colour will not get you anywhere nice, please stop it and go on with the discussion in a civilised manner, this is a generic warning and does not target anyone in particular, even if you disagree strongly with a forum members behaviour it is a forum member and enjoys the same privileges as anybody else. Now on the discussion, Models with STR treat shock as normal ammo, NWI is governed by the FAQ, I will accept any and all complains that this is not a FAQ entry but an errata, but for the moment it is what it is.
The fact that this FAQ changes how it used to work is actually the problem, yes, as it causes a bit of a cascade effect in how the whole rule has to be re-read and re-interpreted. Just to be clear, you are saying that the way Shock is supposed to work is that STR is, essentially, Shock Immunity, and a STR+NWI unit never cares about Shock ammo. Correct? This is what I believe the rule is meant to say anyways, my contention previously is simply that the way it is written with the addition of the FAQ leaves the wording all quite a messy tangle.
For serious, though, if it means what you and @psychoticstorm thinks it means, why didn't they just pull the bit about troopers with STR out of the bullet points?
Thanks for the clarification. I will make sure to point people to this ruling when the question comes up in the future.
Reading these rules threads just makes me want to share/blog. I love Infinity... but in all honesty it is a terribly executed game. As someone who needs clearly defined rules, It's hard to accept they don't exist here. I don't want Infinity to become easier, but I do want the rules streamlined. Stuff like STR being immune to shock while multi-wound is partially immune needs to disappear IMO. Either both are totally immune to shock or not. I don't want a game with exception after exception because that tends to leave room for interpretation and confusion. I play Infinity by doing what I think falls within the rules and when someone questions it, I just wait for the judging to begin. Tournaments have more rulings than I'd like and I just hope the judges share my view. Competition based on subjective interpretation is terrible IMO.
It never matters how tight rules are or how clear they can make them. extensive reading and different perspectives will always spark debates and more than one interpretation. when I originally read the FAQ I didn't second guess myself at all and had no doubt that shock interacts this way with STR. I guess what I'm trying to say is that your complaining about human thing rather then a game design one.
I am also frequently bothered by minor inconsistencies. One of my personal bugbears is that Firewall is mechanically a lot like Cover, except that in a hacking attack you first add the base BTS and firewall modifier and then halve it, whereas in a BS attack you take half the base ARM/BTS and then add the full cover bonus. It's only a couple of percentage points either way, but it's parallel systems acting differently just for the sake of it. The Shock+NWI thing has caused a lot of anguish for the same reasons - people want shock to either affect models or not affect models; having a certain small group of models be affected by half of the rule but not the other half means you have to memorize exceptions rather than learn simple, general rules.
I agree. Plus it leaves more room for... biases to creep in. Infinity could really benefit from a revised/rewritten ruleset. Call it "N3.5" or something...
Models with STR treat Shock as normal ammunition, essentially shock immunity, they even have the same wording, I am not sure what else is needed. If the question is about formatting and if the STR should not be under the automatically die and be its own bullet point, you are probably right and it falls to the proof readers shoulders.
its a formatting issue. Why have a body of rules then some different colored box right after the rules? Is that part of the rule? An addendum? An exception? Consistency of presentation would be helpful. Tighter wording would also be helpful. As a new player, I can't help but think some of the issues come from trying to translate precise wording from Spanish to English. There is definitely some loss in translation.
