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Shock, Valour L3: NWI and STR

Discussion in 'Rules' started by M0Dark, Apr 22, 2018.

  1. M0Dark

    M0Dark Member

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    According to the FAQ Shock nullifies NWI and Dogged for troops with Wounds.

    Does this also effect models with STR instead?
    They are not mentioned in the FAQ and the Ammo chart page says:
    • Units with a Structure (STR) Attribute instead of a Wounds Attribute, such as Remotes, TAGs, Vehicles, etc. Against these, Shock Special Ammunition has the same effects as Normal Ammunition.
    However there is then the big red box:
    IMPORTANT!
    Shock Special Ammunition cancels the effects of the target's Special Skills Valor L2: Dogged and Valor L3: No Wound Incapacitation. Shock Special Ammunition also cancels the effects of the SpawnEmbryo part of the Shasvastii Special Skill.

    Thanks.
     
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  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    No, it only affects troopers with Wounds, not STR.
     
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  3. Dannyboy89

    Dannyboy89 Member

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    Shock effects are treated as normal ammunition according to it specifically stating in the rules. It's pretty clear. Troopers with STR and NWI get to use their NWI. Troopers with 2 wounds and NWI go unconscious
     
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  4. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    With the way the FAQ was ruled, it would be inconsistent to interpret multi-Wound troopers with NWI as affected by Shock but STR troopers with NWI as not affected by Shock.

    They are two different bullet points in the same list of effects.

    Edit:
    Note that this FAQ hasn't been added to the Wiki yet, which means @ijw is still waiting on further clarification.
     
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  5. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    Only the bullet about STR says that you consider it as Normal Ammo. Multiwound bullet doesn't say it, that is why multiwound consider shock ammo as shock ammo applying all effects except for the straight to Dead effect. STR treats it as Normal ammo, same as Shock Immune trooper does. Inconsistent wording in the various effects (multi wound vs STR) is what cause inconsistent application of the effects.
     
  6. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    STR ignores shock, this means the shock does not cancel the NWI
     
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  7. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Not really, anything with more than 1 wound(specifically wounds) gets to ignore only the specific effect of going straight to dead, but anything with structure treats it as normal ammo, so it's consistent, but it isn't very concise..
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Or, alternatively, whoever wrote the FAQ didn't actually understand what the rule was supposed to do.

    I agree with @macfergusson 's assessment of the situation. The rest of you are mistaking wishes for truth.
     
  9. Dannyboy89

    Dannyboy89 Member

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    really now? I think It can't be more clear.

    Let's look at the effects of Shock special ammunition and the effects of Normal ammunition

    Normal Ammunition is the conventional form of ammunition, and HAS NO SPECIAL EFFECTS

    Category
    Standard.

    Roll
    Normal (N) Ammunition forces its target to make one ARM Roll per impact suffered.

    Effects
    • Each ARM Roll failed against Normal (N) Ammunition causes the target to lose one point from his Wounds/STR Attribute.
    • Critical hits with Normal Ammunition cause the target to lose 1 point directly from his Wounds/STR Attribute, bypassing the usual ARM Roll.
    Shock Special Ammunition

    Bio-Munition, Standard.

    Roll
    After a successful attack using Shock Special Ammunition, the target must make an ARM Roll.

    Effects
    • Each ARM Roll failed against Shock Special Ammunition causes the target to lose one point from his Wounds/STR Attribute.
    • If the target has a Wounds Attribute of 1 on his profile and fails an ARM Roll against Shock Special Ammunition, then he enters the Dead state directly, bypassing the Unconscious state.
    • This specific special effect does not apply to:
      • Units whose Wounds Attribute is higher than 1 on their profile (such as Heavy Infantry).
      • Troopers who, during the course of the game, increased their Wounds Attribute above 1.
      • Units with a Structure (STR) Attribute instead of a Wounds Attribute, such as Remotes, TAGs, Vehicles, etc. Against these, Shock Special Ammunition has the same effects as Normal Ammunition.
    IMPORTANT!
    Shock Special Ammunition cancels the effects of the target's Special Skills Valor L2: Dogged and Valor L3: No Wound Incapacitation. Shock Special Ammunition also cancels the effects of the SpawnEmbryo part of the Shasvastii Special Skill.


    It specifically says Shock has the same effects as Normal ammunition as seen above. So essentially all of shock's effects are replaced including this:
    Because against targets with STR IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS SO BECAUSE IT IS NO LONGER UNDER THE EFFECTS OF SHOCK AMMUNITION.

    clear enough?
     
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  10. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Does this apply to anything but the Su Jian?
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Unidrons and Karakuri
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Dannyboy89 The section is ordered in a hierarchical way such that it doesn't matter that it uses the "treated like normal ammo" clause. Of course, it all goes back to the FAQ entry being, for lack of a better word, wrong. The red text box is supposed to read the same as the similar box under Viral ammo.

    The part about "being treated as Normal ammo" is under a header that says "this specific special effect does not apply to:"

    Since the negation of NWI et al is not "this specific special effect, having STR doesn't make you immune to it. Which is idiotic, I'd agree, but that's how the FAQ was written.

    Shock's "read box" is discrete from the section labelled "effects" and thus whether or not it's treated as normal ammunition has no bearing.

    Also, if you think it "can't be more clear" you have no idea what you're talking about, that section in particular is written very poorly (worse than the Infinity rules in general).
     
  13. Dannyboy89

    Dannyboy89 Member

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    @Hecaton This.

    This is not the case as evidenced by the drop bears entry in the official rulebook in page 117 of the rules. the big red box is listed as under effects. It is likewise the same for Motorcycle (page 138) and repeater (page 139).

    It just so happens for shock special ammunition they ran out of space on page 114 so they had to continue the effects on page 115.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's just kind of an addendum to my main point, and isn't really important either way. The "treated as normal ammo" bit is under a heading that says that the list of those types of troopers are immune to "this specific effect." Which means that the implication is that troopers with STR treat Shock ammo as Normal for the purposes of THIS SPECIFIC EFFECT - i.e. instant death. It also implies that instant death is the *only* effect of Shock ammo (which is actually accurate). The problem is that a bunch of Euros misinterpreted the red box.
     
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  15. Dannyboy89

    Dannyboy89 Member

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    I'm going to ignore that last borderline racist comment there.

    It does not say that it specifically says:

    • Units with a Structure (STR) Attribute instead of a Wounds Attribute, such as Remotes, TAGs, Vehicles, etc. Against these, Shock Special Ammunition has the same effects as Normal Ammunition.
    My point still stands. It does not refer to a specific effect but ALL the effects. Plural. Not singular. The big red box is also listed as under effects, hence all effects including that in the red box are replaced by normal ammunition's effects.
     
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  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Danny just dont engage with hecaton. Take what the others have pointed out. Against STR shock is normal ammo. Normal ammo does not effect NwI or dogged.
     
  17. Dannyboy89

    Dannyboy89 Member

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    sorry if I triggered anyone
     
  18. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    What Daboarder said. I've said this multiple times now with this specific ruling and Hecaton + 2 others are adament that the whole world is wrong.
    It should also tell you a lot about a person, if the person go on to state "I'm think my way is correct. Everyone else are delusional"

    Citations please? Anything else is pure speculation from your part.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The red box is not listed as under effects. It's as much "effects" as the note about the Concilium Convention is. You're assuming that the FAQ was written to match up with the intent of the rules, and twisting language into knots in an attempt to make it fit. The simplest answer is just that the FAQ is *wrong*.
     
  20. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    True but the Karakuri's are a bit different since they have Total Immunity, which isn't up for debate. Minor detail but my point is they would never be affected anyway, regardless of the FAQ.
     
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