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Shasvastii on Neoterra!

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by daboarder, Aug 18, 2018.

  1. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Cmon Barakiel, I know you're a good player, please don't cherry pick like this. You're comparing one of the best, most cost effective TAGs in the game to two of the worst, most cost ineffective HI in the game.

    once again, not hating on TAGs in general, I've stated I like TAGs and I stand by it. they're super fun to play with. my gripe is with the big over costed Multi HMG wielding main battle TAGs.

    I think the Hexa is decent but he's rather easy to bait out of marker state, and once it's gone, he's toast.

    boom. you hit the nail on the head here.
    I actually really like the O-yoroi. he's almost like halfway between a support TAG and MBT. and it all comes with none of the bloat! He's one of my favorites, and hey, he drops the Multi HMG.

    The cutter is.... not my favorite, obviously. I think If the cutter is really going to try and pull ARO duty (which he shouldn't be imo), suppressive fire is the way to go. and I don't even like doing that. It feels like the EXP ammo is almost something he doesn't want to be doing, but is forced to.

    I absolutely love all of these pieces, which is why imo a TAG can better support them then be supported by them.
     
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  2. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Regarding the Heavy Infantry... Is there another comparison that can be drawn here?

    There aren't that many situations where you're picking between a TAG or linked Heavy Infantry. Dragao or Tik vs ORCs... Uhlan vs ORCs... Maybe Hospitallers/Magisters vs Seraph, but the cost of that link starts to climb high above the Seraph pretty significantly. I'm curious to know what example you yourself are thinking of.

    With the Hexa, I think a lot of it boils down to player choice and battlefield situation. I haven't found myself actively wishing his stats were better though. The nice thing about using him in NCA is that not only does the Hexa have the protection of TO, but the unit he's most likely to assist (the Swiss) has TO too. That usually means the opponent has to strip away multiple layers of protection before they can do much harm to either unit.

    For the Cutter, one of the great things about that combination of MULTI HMG + TO + major ARM is that you can risk him in long-range AROs. Even classic threats like linked missile launchers or MSV2 HMGs really don't risk doing much to the Cutter, and she can Fail Guts back to Total Cover if she needs to. That's really the beauty of it.

    If she's up in Suppressive Fire, she's out of Marker State, and opens the door to all the short-range threats that are dangerous to her: Close Combat, hacking, shotguns, flamethrowers. So she's actually a piece that's very happy running forward to engage, then retreating behind a network of Auxilia and Mines to Recamo and watch the field. Certainly there are situations where you'll want to plant her midfield and Suppress, but I think she's at her best when she's standing off, with a clear field of view, denying the opponent their effective short-range tools.

    Good discussion, btw. Thanks to the Shasvastii for triggering it :D
     
  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    For that would be:

    Cutter vs Swiss
    Uhlan vs Swiss
     
  4. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    No argument there, the Swiss is fantastic. I'd like to see the Cutter get a direct template or heavy pistol just to help differentiate it a bit. Almost 50 point is a lot to ask when comparing the Swiss to the Cutter, though the Cutter's undeniably more lethal, and I do like its ARO capability compared to the Swiss HMG.
     
  5. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Well, the linking was more of a bonus, not really something that can be done to great effect in Pano. but as for multiple HI versus 1 MBT: Lets compare a Cutter/Jotum
    [​IMG] PanOceania
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] JOTUM MULTI HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, D.E.P. / . (2 | 103)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    [​IMG] CUTTER MULTI HMG / . (2.5 | 115)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()

    4.5 SWC | 218 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    For about the same cost (or less) we can get:
    [​IMG] PanOceania
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] SWISS GUARD HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 68)
    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 37)

    2 SWC | 105 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    The upsides of the Swiss and Hospitaller are obvious. we have a rock hard attack piece and great support/ specialist piece. the Swiss guard gives up a little durability for a smaller footprint without sacrificing much more. in the case comparing it to the jotum he also gets a marker state, which is indispensable. while we're giving up a wound on our attacker, we overall get an additional hit and the ability to pick up our Swiss guard with the doctor.

    This is a big deal I suppose. I find the Hexa wanting to hang around on a building prone instead of walking around doing anything because of how fragile he is.

    This is very true, but if you opt to shoot your B1 EXP multi omg round you're exposing yourself to the same threats. Suppressive fire doesn't HAVE to be in the 16 inch range band. -3 isn't a huge deal for you when you're -12 to hit before range (with cover)

    I really like the Uhlan actually
     
  6. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Me too, but whenever I want to make a list with it I have a strong feeling that Swiss is somewhat doing almost same job but for cheaper ;/
     
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  7. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Very true Swiss guard is a very solid contender, for any list you make tbh. I like the Feuerbach though, that alone sets him aside from other TAGs and most other HI imho.
     
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Last time I've check the Feubarach had only minimal better chances of killing enemy linked ML than a Swiss HMG ;(
     
  9. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    I take Marit regularly to tournaments, even before Ironclad rule. Lists with it are some of my best scorers, and that includes specialist heavy missions.

    Strategija L3 is phenomenal, MSV2 on it, combined with a cheap Smoke Myrmidon, hell, even basic BS15 MULTI HMG. It even has Multiterrain! It's a mean, mean machine.
     
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  10. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    For me, its more about the rangebands and the reactive EXP threat. using it similarly to how Barakiel described using his Cutter in ARO. in marker state, way out of range, just waiting. its 0 out to 48, so without defensive mods you're hitting on a 12 if they have cover. meanwhile if they're anything but a sniper rifle or Missile launcher they're -9 (-3 range, -3 cover, -3 camo). I don't think its terribly uncommon to see MSV2 HMGs try and take on your TAG, just have to leverage the board to your advantage, even then they're still -6.
     
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  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    I mean... look at the Raicho rework. CB has identified the problem he has against internal competition - do something a cheaper Sogarat simply cant. Close range AND Long Range at once.
    The Uhlan is currently the antithesis to that - worse at winning FTF than his competition to begin with and can lower his chance to win even further for higher damage potential.
    Honestly, most of the time I simply wish the damn Uhlan simply had a Multi HMG instead of his weird double weapon kit. But that would make him even more of a straight downgraded Cutter than he already is.

    One of the bigger issues here is the lack of Hidden Deployment. But as long as HD is shackled to TO there is nothing you can do about it.

    Really like the Marut for several missions. Unfortunately I'm a bit of a burnt child. The one time I took a Marut list I didn't get to run him even a single time. The tables for the Missions I wanted the list for couldn't sustain a S7 Silhouette.
    Man that sucked... so I just played 5 games with Achilles who doesn't care much about terrain.

    Looking at this year's Interplanetario tables on Phylk's blog... it seems a common theme that tables simply suck for TAGs.
     
    #111 Teslarod, Aug 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  12. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    By all means, you can take whatever you'd like and do well with it. no arguments there, sometimes ill take the ORC Harris and do solid. I'm not saying they're unplayable, just uncommon and usually out performed by other models. keep in mind my argument is within the framework of how much use you'll get out of "scavenger" on our new merc.
     
  13. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Fair enough, I just saw "Marut isn't good" and I had to comment :-P

    I class Marit quite highly, you can provide excellent support to it in Aleph and it's one of the best TAGs in the game in my opinion.
     
  14. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    The mine launcher certainly was an improvement, and so was the shotgun – to an extent. really you don't want your TAG within 8 of most things. this is what we call "the danger zone". at least the mines help him cover his ass because he knows the rest of his sectorial can't.

    I disagree big time here: Uhlan > Cutter all day baby. As I posted above, Feuerbach is for shooting over 32, where enemy models have trouble touching you. a Multi HMG would probably just bloat his points. the Feuerbach has a much easier time -12ing TR bots than a Multi HMG. S6 is superior to S7 in so many ways. it really is a lot smaller. you're only losing 2 ARM aswell.

    I don't really find the Hidden deploy all too important for this guy. the marker state alone is enough. they're both almost ALWAYS going to be your reserve model, and almost always going to be the first model you activate on your active turn. now, I'm not saying Hidden deployment is bad, just that for what the uhlan does – he doesn't need it.
     
  15. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I agree Aleph probably has some of the best support for TAGs, but the Marut, much like the avatar, is an eggs in one basket play style. imho those are inherently flawed in a tournament setting.
     
  16. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    The Uhlan does make for a very good long-range sniper, exactly as the Cutter was mentioned (better in some ways, because of that long 0 range band and the rare circumstances where the AP + DA delivers better results than the EXP round.)

    The Uhlan does have some strengths going for it, besides that hard-hitting ARO. It is indeed a Specialist, despite being a temperamental one. For every 3-4 Orders you spend manuevering, you basically get an order refunded for free compared to the Swiss Guard. That's really nice for helping it make speedy offensive pushes. This is even more apparent when you can free-move up crates, low buildings, etc. while the Swiss has to climb or find a ladder. This advantage in movement is a big deal for a static force like NCA/PanO.

    Durability too. The extra structure for being able to walk through a mine/Chain Rifle, or challenge an EXP opponent, helps as well. We like to think of these units never failing in a gunfight, but a missile Crit is still a missile Crit regardless of whether you have TO or just regular Camo, and the Uhlan survives these bad dice moments better than the Swiss. If you get caught out by a good MSV pieces too, like a Hsien, the Uhlan's ability to survive multiple Orders and still punch back hard with a solid ARO is really helpful.
     
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  17. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Kinda, but with carefully constructed list and plenty of practice you'd be surprised just how good a chance you stand even when Marut dies early.
     
  18. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    well lets see it! show me a list
     
  19. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Losing 2 ARM also makes it cheaper, which is nice. You keep the BTS and a lot of anti TAG weapons either are AP or circumvent armour anyway. Imho a TAG's defenses are mostly useful for the Active Turn, when you pick the AROs you're facing.
    A Hexa likes fighting TR Bots in his own +3 where the Bot can't hit him back. The Uhlan only gets a 0 Rangeband and has to use Surprise Shot. Your are actually better off if you simply fight the TR bot in 32" with your HMG. There is a <20% chance the TR Bots crits a STR off you, but if he doesn't you get 4 dice on 15s vs his 4 on 5.
    Againt anything that isn't a very high ARM target I'd rather not pay for the option that is the Feuerbach. It is better than the HMG in that niche situation where you leave your own HMG's optimal Range. But you're a 6-4 Camo Token that is supposed to be favoured in every FTF roll in his +3 Range during Active turn.
    The built in pseudo Hexa is nice and all, but an actual Hexa can do the same and a Swiss HMG + Hexa is just 1point (and admittedly 1.5 SWC) more expensive.

    I did play the Uhlan, his S6 combined with 6-4 and ARM6 to not give a damn about Koalas and Mines is very nice for NCA. Hover I found a Swiss + Garuda can do the same thing better without exposing 99 points of your army to easy retaliation.

    One of the best things for both Cutter and Swiss is that you will get to play with your investment. The Uhlan is always one Discover -3 away from being a target. Which is a problem in NCA as not having Mines or Perimeter weapons really enables a lot of things that can go hunt down your Uhlan.
    No one has ever dropped a Sniffer in my DZ on turn 1 to find my Swiss, Hexa or any other TO troop. They're effectively invulnerable until you had a turn with them and that is something I value a hell of a lot in additon to the extra -3 from TO over Camo.

    It's again the usual table layout, if I could put an Uhlan on the first floor of a building where he can ARO, retreat into Total Cover and walk down a ramp on ground level to start going that would be different.

    If our new Shas accessory was a Forward Deployment L1 Minelayer she would go a long way to make the Uhlan massively easier to use for Neoterra, simply because you could secure him against CC Skirmishers and Impersonators during deployment if you go 2nd.
     
  20. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    This one I have at hand. It's for more killy missions primarily, but it can do for almost any:
    [​IMG] Iconoclast Commando──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]10 [​IMG] MARUT Lieutenant (Strategos L3) MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Nanopulser / AP CCW. (3 | 120) [​IMG] [​IMG] KARKATA Flash Pulse / Knife. (0 | 0)[​IMG] PROXY Mk.1 Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)[​IMG] PROXY Mk.2 Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)[​IMG] PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)[​IMG] SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)[​IMG] YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)[​IMG] DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)[​IMG] NAGA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)[​IMG] NETROD . (0 | 4)[​IMG] NETROD . (0 | 4)[​IMG] NETROD . (0 | 4)[​IMG] MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 16)[​IMG] AGÊMA Marksman Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27) 5.5 SWC | 299 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    Plenty of specialists of all type. KHD to threaten enemy Hackers; AHD to help. Both start at half table and can do missions. Regular HD to provide that Exorcism if really critical. Agema is a speed bump, especially for linkteams. Dakini is backup specialist. Sophotect to get Marut and Agema back up, or run for the objectives (or both)

    Limited orders, but that means in LoL you don't have that many to turn regular anyway. Posthuman is obvious Lt.

    Alternatively, you can dump Agema, turn Myrmidon into Myrm Officer with CoC, and fill out last Order with Flash Pulse or Baggage bot.

    Theres also ways to drop Naga, Agema, Sophotect, turn Posthuman Hacker into Engineer, and then fill out the list with Thamyris for cheap Hacker and bunch of cheap bots and Dakini HMG, maybe another Dakini or Garuda Boarding Shotgun. It can go high on Orders. That one is good when there is exclusion zone and less objectives, but it is also much more brittle.
     
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