From a game play/game design standpoint I agree. Nomads should NOT have hidden deployment/mimetism -6/Whatever super TAG is popular right now. They have dependable work horses with maybe the odd trick here or there (i.e. a repeater or a hacker pilot). However from a purely game play stand point Nomad TAGs are designed more like N3 TAGs rather than N4 TAGs, the most noticeable example is the courage/religious issue. If nothing else a Lizard/Gator/Salamander in cover should not flee from a pistol shot, it literally can not hurt the TAG. Infinity does not have a "one always fails rule" like other games. An armor effective armor 11 TAG can not be harmed by power 11 pistol but flee from it 35% of the time. I would like to pick your brain on some of your comments from your other post if you don't mind, otherwise have a good evening.
Your counter argument is a made up fluff excuse. In the real world where I'm playing a game, I have three TAGs to chose from, while Nomads have 6. I don't care if they found an army of TAGs or a wizard conjured them into existence.
I'm sorry, I read the post I replied to as a claim Nomads having more variety of TAGs didn't make sense in the fluff. Should all factions have the same number of TAGs? What about warbands and other unit types?
Sorry Guys I think it's a result of a mixed message. So my original post did include a summary of an argument that I had heard before "nomads aren't a TAG faction blah blah blah" to which I provided my summary counter argument "Then why do they keep giving us TAGs" mostly for a bit of a laugh. At this point I have a reputation for wanting Nomad TAGs to have courage and it has devolved into direct insults. I could either laugh or rage so I choose laughter. But I do recognize I had a part in your sort of discussion and I am sorry for that and any confusion I have caused. Hope y'all have a good morning.
Hope you don't mind me digging this up, but I did wish to discuss this point. While true, factions should be different and sometimes comes down to just "but that is game design" or "CB wills it", the moves CB has made in N4 TAG design run counter to Nomad TAGs not having Courage. So it makes for an interesting discussion. So let's start from a basic premise we both agree with, Nomads are a TAG faction. We are 3rd in having the most TAGs in the game, and if we only count in production TAG models and soon to be released models (Gator) then we climb up to 2nd sharing the spot with Pan-O. (kind of humorous how CA and Pan-O switch places for who has the most TAGs but I digress). So both in game and IRL nomads have a larger than normal variety of TAGs (the median number is 2, and that is even allowing for NA2 to count as having 3 TAGs). While Nomads should NOT have super amazing hidden deployment, 4 order generating, BS 15 TAGS, it is fair to say our TAGs should not appear deficient in a simple way compared to any other TAG CB sells for infinity. They should at least be "standard" in terms of power and ability. Now we can look at TAG design from N3 moving to N4. If we exclude out of production (OOP) factions and Nomad TAGs, In the changing of editions we see that TAGs that had remote presence kept courage (it had been previously nested in remote presence) or gained religious (i.e. the Seraph), and Tags that had martial arts kept courage (i.e. the O-Yoroi). One could argue this was simple de-nesting of rules and move on from there but it does also bear noting that de-nesting rules often did involve models losing access to certain rules and the freedom to apply some rules without including others was a stated reason for de-nesting rules (i.e. you can have MA but not stealth such as the Tuetonic knights). We also saw TAGs that did not have courage previously gain courage (i.e. the Magahriba and Guijai) both of which serve as curious cases. The Magahriba in N3 was one of the examples in the N3 core book used to show what happens when you fail a guts roll, So it literally used to serve as an example that now is moot when you apply it to the TAG. The guijai serves as an interesting example as it shows a conscious decision to give the TAG courage, and while it could be argued that was done as part of giving it MA we should remember that courage is not a part of MA anymore and the Guijai did not have MA previously. Additionally the Guijai was not given the full MA suite of rules from N3 as it lacks stealth (unlike the O-Yoroi). When we look at all the TAGs, except for OOP factions and Nomad TAGs, we find that in N3 some TAGs had courage and some did not but in N4 all of them have courage or religious. This change happened regardless if the faction is a "TAG Faction" or not, TAGs universally do not run from pistols in N4... Unless they are nomads. So the question remains, if these changes happened to other TAGs but not nomad TAGs then why were nomads left out? A courageous salamander seems no more unbalanced than a courageous Zeta, heck the Zeta is easier to repair (remote presence, and they have WIP 14 engineers in the Lambda, it isn't a clockmaker but that is dang close and you can't say you don't want re-rolls on repair), takes more wounds to remove (remote presence), and is cheaper SWC (2 vs. 1.5). Or a courageous Squallo vs. courageous Lizard, that is as straight a comparison as can be made. Additionally courage/religious is not rare in nomads, among the HI we have one option that is not courageous or religious. That is one out of seven options and I am not even counting the digger which would make it one out of eight, so durable units with courage/religious seems to be in the nomad play book. You could say "Just because" but then that "just because" runs counter to a great many data points inside and outside of faction. So how did this happen? So that is the factual part of the observations, all of it readily verifiable. What is less verifiable but substantiated is how the beta testing was done. First, we know Nomads have the "first model" of infinity the Alguacil and it is "the model by which all others are compared" at least according to Carlos. We also know that it is standard in new editions that you establish a baseline and then build/test off of that. I propose the nomads were the baseline faction. We have the model by which all others are judged, we have a plethora of rules and play styles which makes it easy to test a variety of game scenarios, and nomads are one of the most popular factions according to ITS data. In short we are a great place to start, arguably the best best place to start. Now after establishing a baseline you test new ideas and play styles in other factions, and then finish testing by bringing the baseline to where everything else ended up. What I think happened is Covid cut short or limited what they could do for beta testing and fixing things. I feel for CB, I am an epidemiologist, I KNOW how bad Covid got and simply put I can't fault them for anything that went wrong during the play testing between lack of man power, lack of facilities, or just lack of everything. But if there is a problem and it persists then I want to see it fixed, and walking tanks fleeing pistol rounds does not seem like a purposeful design choice. My current theory is there is a design doc for nomads that does not include the words "TAGs should have courage" and so it never got put on our models, and that design has not been updated to include it so even on our new Gator does not get it. Designing a game is tough, it's like any other project with a lot of moving parts. I can easily see how something didn't make it onto the check list and so it never got changed and more importantly, persists. Now I'll agree that last paragraph contains conjecture, and I do have more to support it but that was an entire other thread walking through all our TAGs (SWC differences, lack of AP ammo on iguana, etc) that seemed strange compared to other design trends. And we do see some new trends occurring. New S6 TAGs being BS14 for example (blue wolf and Shakush), or NCO no longer costing SWC (Gator and Bultrak) which was a definite change from early N4. I am excited to see where the stompy bots go from here and what new ideas CB comes up with. If you made it this far thanks for reading. Have a good afternoon.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood. What I'm trying to say is that background doesn't matter. What matters is when I make lists and play a game. Background actually makes me more angry because some try to adjust it to allow for something in game. Also, I do believe some of the fluff makes absolutely no sense. I can totally understand CA and PanO having the most TAGs. Not Nomads. It should be Yu Jing since they are the second greatest power in the Human Sphere. Emphasis on power armor guys or not.
Actually this makes sense to me. In military streamlined and unified equipment is a great boon. Easier logistics. So rich nations can afford to invest in unified solutions, while poorer countries look for deals, buy piece-meal, accept hand-me-downs. US has Abrams main battle Tank. Poland has Abrams, K2 Black Panther, Leopard 2, PT-91 Twardy and T-72. Now I'm not saying that PanO shouldn't have a lot of type of TAGs or anything. Just that the logic: rich big nations = many types of military equipment, poorer smaller nations = fewer types of military equipment doesn't work (to my admittedly very limited knowledge of the subject). EDIT: That's what I get for not reading the whole thread. Apparently the argument was made before.
If background doesn't matter then Yu Jing having fewer TAGs is just part of their design, the faction is built around other things, mainly heavy infantry but some pretty great MI, cool REMs, and a surprisingly good skirmisher. Yu Jing just isn't a faction designed to have a lot of TAGs, much like PanO don't really have warbands and Ariadna don't really have REMs. If background does matter my point is that Yu Jing probably does have the second most number of TAGs in the Sphere, they have entire regiments of Guijia and Blue Wolves, far more TAGs than the Nomads could ever hope to field. Heck PanO probably have more Cutters alone than all the Nomad TAGs put together. Yu Jing are just more standardised and don't use obsolescent TAGs, much like the British army don't keep a bunch of up-armored Cromwells and Comets in inventory, they have exactly one tank as it simplifies training, logistics, and manufacturing.
If that was the case, YJ TAGs would probably be cheaper points, higher AVA and all three sectoral would have them.
-Points aren't based on fluff -All AVA is artificially low in Infinity, its one of the conceits of the game and its based as much around game design as fluff. White Banner can field as many TAGs as Acontecimento or Military Orders, more than Svalarheima! -Why? Just because you've got a lot of something doesn't mean everyone gets it. Paratroopers and Royal Marines don't get Challenger 2s, and neither do the Metropolitan Police. The Guijia is available to both military Sectorials, the Blue Wolf regiment moves around but is currently headquartered on Svalarheima so it is also available to White Banner. ISS doesn't get either because it's not a Military Sectorial and is part of the Judiciary instead.
Well, Poland has a lot of turbulent history that has left them with a lot of baggage to deal with that many nations haven't. Looking at India might be more interesting since they've had a bit more of a fleeting relation with regards to who they buy their stuff from and how they've tried to keep purchases away from their foreign policy - meaning their rich flora of military equipment is not the result of revolutions and drastically shifting military alignment, plus the nation isn't exactly poor anymore. The funky thing with CB's universe is that regardless of being kind of hyper-capitalistic (with a healthy injection of neo-socialism), they haven't quite determined that someone makes the best TAGs and flocked there with the competitor offering mostly a fewer-strings-attached option. TAGs are still "hand-crafted" across the human sphere numbering several multi-billion planets, suggesting that TAGs are still numbering in the lower-hundreds per model rather than thousands. Regardless of which, none of this determines the quality of the pilots and whether they have a volumetric shit compressor or not - something that Nomad soldiers aren't generally famous for.
For the record I'm not arguing for Courage on Nomad TAGs. I'm actually not arguing for or against any changes to the game in this thread. I was just being "well akshually" about tangential fluff/real world comparisons. Kinda like Nomads though. Nomads history might be short but is the very essence of turbulence and baggage :)
On the discussion of AVA and real world comparisons, something to consider is not just the raw number of TAGs a faction could make, but also how many they need to cover their assets. For example, Pan-O can make a lot more TAGs than the nomads no questions asked, however the nomads are not embroiled in multiple border wars/skirmishes spanning continents on multiple planets (Dawn and Svarlheima). The nomads mostly use TAGs for boarding actions and security at specific sites. Your nation can make/field 100,000 TAGs a day, and you need them for 50,000 missions that day then your AVA 2. If your nation makes/fields 1,000 a day but only needs them at 500 missions then same AVA 2. Like with a lot of real world concerns, it is not just raw numbers but also a per capita count that can be useful. Not arguing for changing anyone's AVA, just a thought I had on the subject... okay Lizard should be AVA 2 in Bakunnin, but that is more game design and I exacerbated my carpel tunnel enough with the last post on that subject :P
I really care less about fluff or real world excuses. All I know is I have 0-3 too choose from while Nomads have 6. And ISS can't even compete in some missions like Looting & Sabotage without a TAG. Admittedly I think USARF has it worse.
You can do looting and sabotage without a TAG, you just need anti-material melee weapons such as DA, explosive, or D-charges. Crane agents and ninjas are very viable in that regard, sophotects if you get desperate. Wanted to point this out in case someone tried to cheat you during that scenario. More to your point I do agree every sectorial should have a TAG option, a lesson I thought CB had learned after TAG-line. Though all new sectorials do seem to be designed with a TAG release in mind. Here's hoping ISS is next and gets an espionage TAG of some sort. Fun fact about Looting and Sabotage though, you know how CB had to change the booty table because of the trip hammer? Well the problem of TAGs and booty rolls existed in N3 and N4 because you just need to be a trooper to loot the panoply, and TAGs count. It's been a known problem in a scenario that encouraged bringing TAGs but CB only fixed it because of the triphammer (and even then only AFTER the triphammer's rules had been in the wild for months). You ever seen an armor 14 Jotun? It was not fun, especially if it made it to cover to be armor 17.
I had a Szalamandra Pilot with a Motorcycle once. That got confusing. I wouldn't say Cranes are the peak of viability in that scenario, though they at least work, and Ninja have an infamously hard time wounding high-ARM targets because of their startlingly low PHY. Engineers are more likely to be stunned than help anymore, L&S is an absolute joke of a scenario that really needs to be rebalanced around all armies rather than just those CB decides get decent CC units (and even then, often just one Character - NCA and OSS have a dreadful time in that mission if someone picks off Shona/Andromeda).
