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Seed, hatch and ltd camo.

Discussion in 'Rules' started by deltakilo, Jul 21, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Because as was posted, it doesn't matter whether camo is cancelled or not - when hatching the rules state you remove the egg marker and replace it with a Model. Camouflaged state is a marker and not a model.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    The problem is the general rules never take in count other interactions, these rules are asume the model isn't in any marker state.
    If you join that rule with this one:
    You can argue you place the Camo marker instead of the model when haching. Because again, there is no CAMO cancelation clause triggered, nor explicit mention to the CAMO state being terminated (in fact that one isn't even considered there).
    The state being terminated is not even mentioned inside the rules that cover that interaction:
    I'm not saying I'm sure CAMO stays after hatching, I'm saying that isn't clear enough to not generate problems so a clarification/FAQ would be welcome.
     
  3. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    I agree that the situation is not 100% clear, but this approach is flat-out wrong.

    The rule explicitly tells you to place a model. You cannot place a Camo marker instead.
     
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  4. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That's arguable... camo rules change the model for a marker; that marker can do all the things a model can do unless those break the state; AFAIK there is no rule that say Hatching break the state.

    For example, let's take a superjump model in CAMO state, if we are that rigid with rules, he couldn't jump:
    I know I'm being very fussy; but imo if the camo state is suposed to get cancelled, that needs to be specified because this can be rules lawyered.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Tangential

    Mechanical Transmutation specifies that STR is shared across both forms and Motorcycles specify that the trooper has two profiles with differing MOV and S values. Lo-Tech and Symbiont Armour specifies that W attribute is carried over from the first profile to the next. I can't find the same for Seed-Embryo, I assume it's the former two that if the egg takes a wound, so does the hatched profile, and that Seed-Soldiers aren't immune to Shock? What am I missing?
     
  6. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    So again this is about which states pass on from one profile to the other when you change profiles?
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It's a 1W trooper which swaps to an alternate profile in the right circumstances.

    No, it's not related to discussions about TAGs etc.
     
  8. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    Then the margin between combis and rifles absolutely should be reworked. ( it also makes the zero to foxtrot pricing even more confusing)
    I understand all of what you are saying, I just absoloutely disagree they are in the same ballpark when it comes to quality of troop. Even giving seeds mimetism for their cost would do alot to make them better. Im not going to argue with the fact they have stuff on their profile (arm,dtw etc) i would contest that those combination of skills on the unit dont mesh nearly as well as they do on foxtrot. But this thread wasn't intended as a fix seeds thread even though I have hijacked my own thread with my rants :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:.

    Ill use seeds if I have to, it has a role, so if I need it ill use it..... begrudgingly. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
    CabalTrainee likes this.
  9. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    If you need more evidence concerning the fact that it's supposed to cancel any marker states that the user is in, have a look at the Decoy state rules, and then work through what happens if the Seed Soldier never has an ARO or spends an order and gets to the start of the second turn and its seed state cancels.

    The decoys are written to go away
    • The real Decoy user's Decoy state is cancelled for any reason.
    That's not satisfied unless you read this
    • A trooper's Seed-Embryo state is cancelled, and its Marker replaced with its model, whenever:
    as "A trooper's Seed-Embry state is cancelled, and whatever marker state it may be in is canceled, whenever:" And, honestly, that first bullet point and its first sub-bullet point probably looks like complete nonsense if you don't think that that's what it's there for.
    • A trooper’s Seed-Embryo state is cancelled, and its Marker replaced with its model, whenever:
      • The player chooses to cancel the Seed-Embryo state during the Order Count step of the players’ second Active Turn or their following Active Turns.
    I mean, look at that. The Seed-Embry state is canceled if you choose to cancel it. :tada: It's a complete waste of text, unless you accept that it's cancelling whatever marker state the user is in.

    Although, looking at the bullet point lists for Seed Embryo and Decoy on the wiki, the wiki isn't doing an adequate job representing the nested bullet point lists that the PDF is showing.

    Concerning lawyering, every Morat Rules Lawyer knows that the best course of action when worried about lawyering is a pre-emptive attack.
     
    Ogid likes this.
  10. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    In decoy we have this bullet point:
    Revising the Decoy rules, that is missing from Seed-Embryo.
    It's not definitive but could imply the state is canceled in seed-embryo or that they forgot about ruling that case. However I think something like canceling an state should be explicit; but that could be pointing the CAMO is canceled... or that case just wasn't ruled.
    This still needs a clarification.

    Cancelling it in your order phase generate no ARO, quite handy to move away from a hairy position in just 1 order.

    Good one, I've just checked the PDF and it's true; that should get fixed.
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I mean, I agree that adding that last bit to the seed-soldier rule would certainly clear it up, but to any rules lawyer trying to maintain camo when hatching I would ask, "What skill does your seed-soldier have that allows it to be in a camo state?"
     
  12. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That's a good question.
    However not having the ability isn't a cancelation clause and limited camouflage doesn't have the clause that say the ability is needed to maintain the state (that clause it's in CH2 and CH3).
     
  13. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I still think “place the model” is pretty unambiguous. It’s the same sort of wording used in the camo cancellation. (And compare the wording for hidden deployment activating as a marker)
     
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Ideally with a TAGsock.
     
  15. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Specifically, a RAICHOsock.
     
  16. Flipswitch

    Flipswitch Sepsitorised by Intent
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    Is the Raicho heavier than the new Avatar? not picked one up!
     
  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I think the Avatar might be a tad heavier, though it'd be rather close. I said Raicho because we were talking about Morat Rules Lawyers ;).
     
    Flipswitch likes this.