I think the debate on that is open. I think we still have - and even gained - raw strength, but I can see your point.
Batrep posted: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/that-loving-feeling-vird-team-1-at-rumble-on-route-66.28178/
MO has a much much lower cap than VIRD on paper. VIRD has stronger shell games, camo specialists, interesting tricks... MO has a linked BS14 B4 weapon that you throw at everything. Subtle, MO is not. This is the hardest reverse kneejerk reaction I've seen in a while, fwiw. In a game like infinity, the army with the largest variety of consistently good tools will consistently perform the best, which is why we see Aleph and Tohaa float to the top so often. Varuna as a sectorials also has a large variety of consistently good tools. MO only performs consistently in throwing 5 unmodified dice at BS17 wherever it wants on the table, which is great for some problems but very poor for others. This is brought up frequently but if one win at a single tournament two years ago before 10 of the armies that exist today were released is the best evidence that MO is good, MO is probably not good.
VIRD also has BS14 in link. And Feubarach. And SMG. And 1 SWC BS13 Mimetism HMG. And linkable MSV2 with Mimetism. Yay for MO and they now much more expensive BS14 HMG link.... (where also LT is ...)...
Both Acon and Varuna can throw down a BS14 hmg at a significantly reduced price mixing fusiliers or Acon fusiliers (pft "regulars"). Varuna can also imitate the most important part of the CC aspect of the knights too, stealth. Further, they can throw out a mimetism BS13 hmg. Acon can toss out a MSV mim hmg at BS12 but combines the improved defense of the mimetism with the mod stripping of msv. These alternatives to a BS14 hmg are also fine on their lonesome.
I'd even go so far as to say MO has the lowest skill ceiling/plateu of all the PanO sectorials. NeoTerra has Drop Bears, Auxbots everywhere, the new and improved Bolts alongside several non-PanO units, namely Devas, CSUs and Garudas. It's not much subtler than MO, but it is not as reliant on "Big buff HI dude with an HMG/Spitfire." Acon has a similar case of link shenanigans to VIRD, except it also has a large selection of Minelayers as well, alongside a whole bunch of ALEPH auxiliaries and is probably the subtlest PanO sectorial ATM. Or is that VIRD now...? MO has tools, yes, but not nearly as varied or as complex to master.
One could argue that having a smaller toolbox is harder to master than having a big one. Honestly I don't know (but I also love playing MRRF. Maybe I just love the underdog position' or just playing the mini I own :-) ) But each time I play MO in our little meta I end up doing fairly well (placed 2nd on 16 in two tournaments this season). This topic encourage me to keep playing them and see if I can build some consistency. But I think you oversimplify MO. They got a lot of TO, a wide variety of links which you can switch midgame, including some MSV 2 (koni, black friar), good TAG, good mele on almost everybody, some good hacking. They also got some dropbezr and auxbot even if not my favorite units. They fit my playstyle.
This. I think this is what it really comes down to. And while strategies will overlap, I do think CB aims to make no two armies/sectorials completely the same.
Total AVA Order Sergeants with TO and infiltration. In two flavors: FO with mines or MULTI sniper. They are quite a bargain at 27 and 33 pts each. MO is the only army in the game that can put a full TO list. Granted they have no jammer or sensor, but dude you can't have it all. VIRD can't afford to build cores of HI like MO, furthermore VIRD can't build a full 10 HI list that is still playable (and probably quite powerful in LI environment) . As you said MO is not meant to be subtle, but they can try. But for sure throwing a linked BS14 B4 weapon is not the only thing they can do. MO have Father Knight Missile Launcher On a character, and two units that pay SWC cost for support weapons. The only thing I have heard in this subforum is that you want SMGs in MO to exploit it by making cheaper a unit that already gets enough discounts. Good for them. It's also an army based on 1W units very vulnerable to CC in direct comparison with average 2W ARM 4 BTS 6 HIs with good CC deterrent skills that become hilariously cheap with some dirty exploits and hand adjustements to cost. There's a single unit with MSV2 in VIRD while MO have infiltrating MSV2 mimetism combi LI, MSV2 spitfire LI and linkable MSV2 MI with MULTI rifle and drop bears or non linkable MSV2 MULTI sniper. And the reason the Black Friar sniper isn't allowed to link is quite evident to prevent an ARO team of doom alongside the linkable Father Knight with ML. For Black Friar sniper to link the Father Knight ML option should disappear or become unlinkable. Besides it's not as if all armies are meant to have a linked MSV2 sniper. There're no linked MSV2 in Acontecimento nor in NCA, therefore PanOceania has no entitlement to enjoy a linked MSV2 sniper in each sectorial. Yay for those Haris options that come with specialist, they are quite a steal. Listen, if VIRD appeals you more then play VIRD. MO is meant to play different but it has enough tools to get the job done. The error many of you are doing is assuming that you should be able to build a full HI core and still enjoy all the tools that a list with lighter, and thus cheaper units, can fit in. That simply won't happen. Lists that rely on costly HIs links limit themselves to single combat groups therefore reducing the number of tools they can bring and specially their field presence due to lower unit numbers. Yet I find MO has been given enough options to make up for this. For example, just look at the next beauty: Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 3 KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) 1.5 SWC | 117 Points Open in Infinity Army This link is amazing and quite unique amongst all armies. Each member is a specialist so they can push buttons and accomplish objectives. Killer hacker and Doctor specializations. You get a doctor to heal any fallen member and a KHD + tinbot to protect link. Two members have 360º visors, which allows for more field control and to prevent being attacked from a blind angle. Furthermore two of them bring DTWs plus D charges for extra mission objectives. And finally each member is both very competent at shooting and CC. No other army can replicate such kind of link. HI + CQB + Jack of all trades flexible units = THOSE WERE YUJING TRAITS, WTH THESE UNITS ARE PANO????!!!! On the other side I look at IA and I see the old PanO: plain units focused on doing a single thing well.
Those traits kinda sorta evaporated with the Uprising. It became HI + flexible units after that. Invincible Army is basically the second least subtle faction ATM TBH. Right behind Morats on the unsubtlety front.
Just to address a few of these points: 1) FK Missile Launcher in a link is more expensive and more vulnerable than a linked Kamau. He's beefier but significantly less likely to win an F2F without Mimetism and MSV2. His backup is also more expensive. 2) Keep in mind Acon does MSV1 + Mimetism which is about as good or better than MSV2. It's the fact that that the Kamau gets MSV2 and Mimetism in a link that makes it so far ahead of the curve for PanO. 3) I think a SMG would be fine on the Doctor hospitaller and a few other specialists in the army. Given their kits, Santiagos would be another excellent choice for a SMG profile, as the jack of all trades. Remember that 2 smgs vs. 2 combis saves you an entire order which is huge in an order-starved army like MO. 4) Last point, MO CC is only enough that mid-tier CC specialists don't come after you. Put anything with MA3 or higher against almost anything in MO and look at how the rolls work (not in MO's favor generally), and second point, arguing that CC is a huge selling point of almost any HI that starts in your DZ's kit is probably not a good argument. The odds for Knights in CC will almost never beat their odds shooting except in the rare case they get to dog pile on some poor TAG (which is very unlikely without delivery systems like smoke.)
And MO is probably third. Link team of doom backed by a bunch of light guys (some of whom may be in TO).
The funny thing there, of course, is that the "most direct" factions are often the ones that require the greatest finesse. MO, Morats and IA may be direct, but I don't view them as blunt instruments. When you have less minis on the table, less tactical diversity, fewer tools, you need to be ultra-careful with how you use your existing resources. I've seen @RattlerNxt or Polynikes thread a needle getting a Daturazi up the table, with subtlety in maneuvering and a level of precision that's definitely the opposite of what you'd expect from a bellowing Impetuous warband.
Ironic how the factions with the fewest approaches/tool variety end up being the most complex, opposed to the logical assumption of the factions with the most varied stuff being the most complex. It's funny. In an odd, unexpected way.
Tragic really. It is strategy born of necessity. When you start revealing hidden deployment models just to use em as line of sight blockers to let others cross fire lanes, you know shit is tough
