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Rudras - anyone played?

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by paraelix, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. Zelaponeepus

    Zelaponeepus Well-Known Member

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    I haven’t had the chance to play with a Rudra yet, but the K1 looks appealing to me since our local meta sees a fair share of TAGs and HI rambo pieces.

    I will say that although I really want to use her, I’ve struggled to write her into a list.
     
  2. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

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    Another games with Rudra. Abother turn (8-10 orders) spend on killing TR drone (won every roll, in range) or puppetbot (caught it without cover, dealed 1 wound, got 2 crits, died;P ).
    And after Rudra is dead, post humans goes in and gets job done. Every time. Or daikini link. Or even 1 daikini, because negative mods are awesome;P

    Do we really need something against heavy targets? We have this e/m grenades guy for 10 points. For example.

    And is Rudra with full support doing job that daikini link/deva harris would do for same points?

    Ill try yadu/deva/rudra harris and I putting rudra on shelf to try other options.
     
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  3. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Got to play against a Rudra twice with the same result. It died because it's 4-4 and S4.
    You have a harder time keeping it further back like a 6-4 Rui Shi/Bulleteer. It's gigantic and can't retreat properly. At 40 point it has a massive target on it's back. It's hackable without stealth or access to Fairy Dust.
    Compared to a Rui Shi or Bulleteer it's abysmal at shooting most things.

    Both games it just died because while it is a bullet sponge, even a cheap ARM4 HI is much more survivable for most likely fewer points and access to better guns.

    The Haris it's available for also doesn't really need it for anything but C+. If that's the part you value - consider Dart.
    Oh and the Repeater is also kind of a problem for your backfield Hacking. A Danavas or Deva are good, but still on the backfoot against a variety of cheap Surprise Shot or extremely effective Hackers.

    I thought it had potential, but it seems to be an unfortunate amalgam of very big weakpoints that outweigh its advantages.
     
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  4. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    The Rudras is 6-4. I think that your opponent might have not made a good use of the bot because from what I see, it is a really scary machine againts anything that has ARM2 or more (it is as efficient as an AP MMR against ARM2 and better against anything with more ARM).
    The Rudras certainly isn't a troop to send dying like the other remotes. It is expensive but it is also pretty resilient. Of course there will be time it will go unconscious like any over ARM4 HI but it still will be salvageable unless your opponent uses even more orders to finish it. And you can bring it back to full STR compared to healing HI means bringing it only to 1W.
    Did you guys even though to give it a try in a Yadu Core? This FT seems very frightning in alpha strike.
     
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  5. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Yeah. But you're still comparing it to a damage 13 weapon... It's really not that scary until you start hitting ARM 5+ (and even then, meh? You're saving on 13s vs 11s for a damage 15 no frills weapon).

    [​IMG]

    A 180-200 point fireteam, no visual mods, 4-2 move mostly, not even 2 full wounds...
     
  6. Arlic

    Arlic Active Member

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    Yes, they are expensive.

    But Why 4-2? Yadus are 4-4.
     
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  7. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    You know you're still saying wrong things? Yadus are 4-4 and because they are MI, they have FDL1 too. Yes, it costs a lot (though you could put a Samekh in to reduce the price) but nobody complains against a full core of Hospitaller as far as I know in PanO. You're paying for something similar to a Vet Kazak (I know you don't have Mimetism but Yadus have a lot of flexibility compared to VK with DB, E-Marat MULTI Rifles etc.) and immune totally to E/M Ammo (a thing that VK aren't). Laugh at me all you want, you still mustn't have played them more than one time just for the joke, so you have no ground to talk. Theory in Infinity never last long. This reminds me all the talk we keep having about ORCs and Bolts in PanO. The one that complains the most are those that never even played them except maybe just one time.
    I consider myself enable to provide real advice on anything except if I really have played it and tried to push the thing out of the box. That's why I ask you if you have even tried it. And you laugh at me while showing you have zero clue about the real behaviour of this FT. I find this a bit offending and unaccurate.
     
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Nobody plays that without Joan, and even then usually Magister+Hosp link is better than a pure Hospitaller one (as the latter doesn't give you much for the price).
    "Problem" with VK is that it links freely with cheap as chips Kazaks and good ARO pieces like Frontovicks.
     
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  9. Hiereth

    Hiereth AI Artichoke

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    I'm almost sure Yadus were meant to be wildcard, and what happened in testing that made CB go, nah this is overtuned but VK is just fine where he is.
     
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  10. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I was thinking the same until my brother showed me it in standard version (2 Docs, 1 BS and 1 HMG) and then I replaced the BS by a second HMG. And here is why I would play this link in particular : when the first HMG falls, you still can push with a second one. There was still 3 Magisters to be sure I would have enough knights to have a full core until turn 3. And, well, it was hard to play it well (my brother would have done a better job with it than me has it matches more his playstyle) but it is hard to play against too. I think you already know this but the pain train with 10 orders in the first turn can do a lot of job before falling back to the DZ to make its foxhole. And they can be all alive at turn 2 to do it again...

    And I'm aware about the cheap FT for the VK. But it is his Achille's heel too as the Line Kazaks are easy to kill. And this FT can't walk in the midfield as easily as the Yadus can because the only trooper that can do it is the VK. TAK has to rely on their infiltrators to clean the way. Yadus clean the way alone.
     
  11. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    My mistake, sorry.

    And they are beyond expensive. Hospitallers are expensive. You are paying that price but getting BS13 not-2-wounds not-good-phys. Only nice feature they have is immunity to E/M / hacking, and that is at best yawn.


    And to those that try and compare Yadus to Veteran Kazaks... Are we playing the same game?!
     
  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I just had exactly such type of game (10 order list Hosp+Mag link + Joan + Montesa LGL) against TAK. It was final round of tournament, Decapitation. Noone wanted to leave their own DZ and risk "big points" we traded blows (but just killing most ARO pieces) and were exchanging "minor" units (Streloks, Dog Warriors, Montesa, TO OS etc.) untill the final round of game where Joan carefully went on rampage (killing few people).

    On topic: you cannot make full Hosp link without Joan or Fersen which heavily inflates the cost without actually giving you that much in return. And link without Joan (and her 2 additional "cheap orders") is reallly, reallly unwieldy and expensive.

    I prefer to have a TO MSR instead of 2nd HMG. At least to my current experience I hand't lost my HMG "imiedietly" so far (but that might be bit of luck).
     
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Thanks for the 6-4, somehow managed to miss that (maybe because it's stuck with an otherwise 4-4 Link, having a 6-4 in there is certainly a nice boost).
    However the Rudras is far far worse at dealing damage than a B4 Spitfire with either ODD or MSV2+Smoke tricks. Especially with ZOC, MSV2 Smoke shenanigans available.
    A MMR of any kind is nothing to brag about on a 40 points troop without VIS MODs.
    ARM4 doesn't really help on the defense, when people easily hit you without cover because of a massive Silhouette. Healing stuff back to full STR is situational at best (Marut?) and otherwise a waste of Orders in Aleph.

    While a couple Yadu on their own are neat toolkits, a full Yadu Fireteams shares the pricetag of Orc and Mobile Brigada Links, which is already concerning. The added problem against Viral is a real issue for one of the toughest matchups (Tohaa) and some other random occurences (Haqq/Hassassins, ISS, other Vedic and everything with Aida). They're still just baseline BS13 pseudo HI, despite being immune to Hacking and Isolation, they are very vulnerable to plain old enemy fire, templates and CC compared to their pricetag. 2 real wounds would have made them a lot better in a Link, especially since they can completely forfeit the support of an Engineer at almost no risk (aside from glue). Not being able to support them with a dirt cheap MK1 Doc is a noteworthy lack of synergy.

    The Joan(and or DeFe)+Hospitaler Link is nice. It wrecks face if you can go first and your opponent can't deal with it. But is easily disassembled by a somewhat challenging matchup due to lack of Orders alone.
    People love that Link for a reason, it looks great and is really fun to play with when things go your way. Still, it's unreliable, limited in options and entirely predictable.
    That said the Link has its place in Limited Insertion. Here the BS23 Boarding Shotgun with insane damage potential is the best argument the Link has for it's existence, dropping it seems like a waste.
     
  14. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I assure you we are playing the same game. I will never say that they are trash etc. but they have weaknesses that Yadus don't have and both have strengths.
    You have the same PH as the VK, you know... And excuse me but you pay for a lot damn nice mix of weapons too. But that just don't count I suppose... E/Marat is probably the best DTW in the game along with HFT and it is on most of the profiles. You have MR and a 5 man core can throw their drop bears at 18. As I said, VK are good in their FTs for cheap hard punch but they can't go in the midfield like the Yadu one can because the Line Kazaks will be murdered and the VK will die outflanked. Since they can't link with other troops in a full core, there is always a spot for a kill that will matter to destroy the link.
    But maybe I'm overrating the link, I don't know, but I know too that you may be downrating a link that could reveal to be one of the go to for those who have tried it a bit.

    Well, I really don't like that much the TO MSR tbh. My list was this one :
    [​IMG] Ordre des Hospitaliers
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]3
    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 51)
    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 41)
    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 41)
    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 41)
    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 37)
    [​IMG] MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    5.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
    The point of this list is the flexibility in the use of attack pieces as a lone Hospitaller is able to wreck some havock without the need of the FT. No midfield control but total liberty about how I can deploy. And believe me, in the good hands (so maybe not mines) it is really a thing. And the power of a FT of knights in CC is something too. You can take one wound or lose one knight if you're actually butchering the DZ of your opponent.

    So while I know Yadus are not the same as Hospitallers or Shang-Ji or even VK, they have things to play with to worth this core. But I agree with you, it may be not as easy to find out as a Dakini core. But I think you can do a lot more with it in comparison.
     
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  15. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Problem with Yadu is that Infinity does not reward units which do everything a bit. Yadu are trying to do what.
    How is E/Marat good at all? I mean, yeah, it's a bane of all HI and TAGs, but here's a clue for you - Infinity has many, many banes to HIs and TAGs. It's one of the reasons they are seen so rarely.
    Meanwhile, do you know who does not fear E/Marat? Any cheap infantry unit, in particular cheap warbands. It does effectively nothing to them. Y'know, the units you'd most likely want to hit with a template weapon.
    FOR 200 POINTS. So what. Bolts can do 17s at 120 points for the link. It's simply not worth it.
    Even if that's somehow true, that VK link cost 80 points. And btw, Yadu link will get dismembered hilariously easily anyway.
    Sure, I may be. But so far, I heard nothing that would make me reconsider my stance.
     
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  16. Styx

    Styx Cat.IE~~

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    I see Yadu's team strong on Hunting party mission... team core without specialist except from Shakti only including the num2 plus a Rudra in this team, as well all of them... got ADSHL, with 3 proxies, Asura LT2 and maybe something; Andromema or Dart, scary synergie. Most efficiency on Rudra are playable in that Yadu's core, with that REM added you have a nice and excellent job task force only for killing in "all ranges", the marskman rifle k1 with assited fire going on to 18s in a mobile team core. The problem has OSS, you got the Dakini team, that REMs with mimetism also carrys a lot of firefigth, more better in active turn than the comparission on Unidron team link, OSS and Onyx are the same;

    - Unidron; Better on ARO turns, lack the HMG for active turns - Dakinis; solid ARO but don't have an REM s2 with ML, but in active turn you got HMG like a Q-drone with core link bonus, or a Sniper, isn't the awesome plasma sniper on the Unidron, but you have a great sniper too.
    - Rodoks; excellent assault troops, lacks on the resilence of shock ammo but you have mimetism. - Yadus: solid troops with veteran 1, "best MOV" and also can join with a special troops including the Rudra... ¿cons? expensive list, non effective semi-HI, but you are inmune to isolation, lost of LT and nice weaponry... and yeah, shock inmunity + NWI, some mines, including the dispenser from Rudra. And the SAME 12 PHY than this Morats.

    About Rudra, cheap haris providing on a single Haris Yadu option + Deva and that murder bot. If you want the special on Shakti+Asura+Rudra, i find the best way on them: 160pts, on a haris with high resilence and the cover provided by dakinis team... At same time, single Rudra, as a medium attack, its the same like the murder s4 bots... but you have a nice attack piece and the most important thing from me; your fast and resilence mobile repeater on a strong sectorial providing awesome hacking plays: just up in the middle and put on him White Noise... here the Dakinis going to be crazy or... that murder s4 bot.
     
  17. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    @Nemo No Name Mmmhh... just for stoping the rampage? Or you prefer to let a Dog Warrior murder all the FT? I know you will answer smoke but that means no double shot of Chain Rifle and the Dog might not be the best to take out effectively a Yadu in CC. And this works also against any rambo without Veteran L1+ and against any HI/TAG/REM. So, yes, against Morats, the E/Marat sucks. But so does the HFT against Dogfaces and Karakuris.
    As for the comparision to Bolts : Bolts don't have MUTI Rifle, don't have NWI. Being able to take a crit or a trade with 1W troopers and still be alive is something strong to me. And the fact is that Viral weapons are really rare. I don't count the time I played against Tohaa and the only source of Viral of the game was the Nikoul, something a Rudra helped by an Asura/Danavas can deal easily. Yes, it is expensive but at least you pay for a lot of useful things, unlike Hector.
     
  18. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    a) Cheapest you could go is 86 points, if you take Rudra MR + Deva Sensor Harris + Samekh, which is a crap team. Even if you change Samekh to Yadu FO, you are already at 96 points. This is not cheap, and any other upgrades take it more into 110 territory.
    b) Rudra is not a murder bot. Buletteer is a murder bot. Garuda and Dakinis are murder bots. Rudra is a maybe-kill-something-bot.
    For one, you have not dealt with Dog Warriors, merely postponed the time when you'll have to deal with it. And you already ate 2 Chain Rifles for your troubles. Not to mention savvy players can save its Irregular order to be used after it's Isolated. Surprise!
    Frankly, I've never had so many problems dealing with Dog Warriors. I mean, sure, they need to be dealt with, but it's not such a huge deal. And I'd much rather have a HFT than a E/Marat. HFT is higher damage and actually does wounds on the Dog Warrior.
    If you want to find a good example where E/Marat is useful, try Achilles. Cheap warbands would gleefully run into E/Marats to make you eat Chain Rifles and/or whatever else nice they have.

    In any case, if I want E/Marats, I'll bring Arjuna - at least she comes with Mimetism.
    MULTI Rifle is overpriced like hell, and Bolts would be worse with them. And while Bolts don't have NWI, they also don't cost 30-40 points. But anyway. I do agree Yadu are, in direct comparison, better than Bolts.
    However, looking at what is available in faction, I'd argue Yadus are much worse than Bolts. We have no end of expensive (yet good) models to field, why bother with a kinda-toolbox-that-can't-do-anything-well?
    Didn't mention Viral. If you're referring to my "not-2-wounds", I was referring to lack of Unconscious state. Which I don't mind, but it is a comparative disadvantage.
    But also, don't forget there's the infamous and excellent Viral Sniper Lasiq in this game, not to mention now there's also Aida with her Viral Mines. Enjoy Dodging!

    Also, you've now introduced 64+ or 110+ points into your 200 point link-team-list.
    Are you serious? I mean Hector isn't the greatest in vanilla but he is quite nice in Steel Phalanx.

    Yadu are just bad everywhere. What useful tools? You'll waste orders to die from a random DA sniper hit or a few Combi Rifle potshots.
     
  19. devil.advocates

    devil.advocates Well-Known Member

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    Who in the right mind did someone ever compare Yadus with Bolt?

    Both are like, soo different by miles. Like NWI,NCO,+2MOV,+2WIP,Duo,HRL,MR,SMG,E/Marrat kind of difference. Its like comparing durian and spoiled orange.
     
  20. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

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    Yadu got e/maratas AND multi rifles.
    For cheap warbands they would use shock froom multi.
    For HI/Tags goes... e/marats.
    Its called good toolset and its not nice to think that your opponent is idiot and will use e/marat on 6pts skirmishers. Or intentionaly use this argument in discussion to make opponent look silly.
    Bad Nemo, bad!

    On the other hand, comparing vet kazak and yadu... lol. rotfl even. Link cost AND mimetism changes everything. For real. And this AP HMG thing. Same BS and NWI/vet isnt enough. Negative mods are king in this game, and simple mimetism can change everything.
    Also, for 1 yadu link team You basicaly got 2 vet kazak + kazcs link teams. And i heard that orders are pretty good in this game.

    I was full pro rudra, but argument that she can move and use her repeater for daikinis and use white noise. Cool. Same as 8 pts drone with flash pulse. ;) Woah! 42 points well spend, day is saved.
    Putting Rudra in yadu makes yadu even more expensive. But okay, I guess its option for LI. I would go for Asura+yadu harris and daikini core, but I like when army has lots of options.