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Riotstoppers versus Camo Markers

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Section9, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    This came up in another thread.

    The cancellation clause for a Camo Marker says:

    A Riotstopper's Adhesive ammo does not cause an ARM/BTS Roll.

    So, if a Camo Marker gets hit by a Riotstopper, does it put the Camo Marker into IMM-2 without revealing the model?

    By RAW, a Camo Marker hit by a Riotstopper does NOT get revealed.
     
  2. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    While normally I detest RAW creating counterintuitive effects via loopholes (and the pontificating hermeneutics that come out of it which throttle smooth play), in this case the outcome is kind of hilarious.

    The image of Predator-camoed enemy trooper glued to a tree and everyone standing around it scratching their heads and trying to figure out what it is before they can shoot is is really funny.
     
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  3. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    This highly interests me and the Concilium 99
     
  4. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    But not counterintuitive:
    If the camo is still working, then you still have to discover it: scratch your head and figure it out!

    The funny thing is that Discover is the only 'move' the marker can make... :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

    But here is another interesting question:
    Can you immobilise a mine? - It has no PH attribute?
    And if you can/it autohits - can it still trigger*?
    Is 'trigger' an attack? - Because it can not declare attacks while glued...
    (*during the next ARO, if glued with a large teardrop out of immediate trigger range)

    edit:
    Sorry @Section9 - I did not want to derail your just-split-off-thread...
    If it can not be solved easily we maybe should split this one off as well...
    But it is about the fact that riots toppers do not cause an ARM/BTS roll, too...
    Can you glue a CrazyKoala?
    That could have happened with an Adhesive Launcher even before Riotstoppers were released.
     
    #4 daszul, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  5. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
    Warcor

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    chromedog, WarHound and HellLois like this.
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I'd argue that you could still use them as a base to lay an adhesive template, however. They just ignore the effects.
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Had a feeling I was missing something, as 'clearing' mines via Riotstopper would have been broken.
     
  8. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    It might still be revealed, if Riotstopper user crits on his Intuitive Attack:
    It gets even funnier if they don't discover it ("Must've been the wind" (c) every Skyrim guardsman): if I recall correctly, you can't discover your own markers, and you can't enter base contact with undiscovered markers, so your Engineer can't unglue the glued Camo.
    - Free me already, I'm right here!
    - But I can't find you!!!
    (EDIT: this is wrong, since, as later commenters pointed out: 1) Discover does not have a requirement to target enemies, and 2) Imm does allow several actions that will reveal the Camoed model. Still funny, though.)
     
    #8 Gunmage, Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The camo trooper could Reset to reveal themselves, though.

    "Hey, do you hear that? It's Steve's phone vibrating."
     
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  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    @HellLois probably a good candidate for the next FAQ
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You could make it so that all successful hits knock off Camo, if written right would solve the "template hits mine above S0" issue as well.
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Ok, I've been looking into this with more people around. Consensus is that you can ARO, after being glued as a marker, with RESET or DISCOVER. Declaring those as ARO is enought to get out of the predicament.

    Additionally, it seems like Discover can be declared against non-marker targets (amazing considering the FAQ regarding intuitives against non-camo/smoke/etc... targets), and since by being in Marker State the IMM troop has 360º LoF, any enemy troop crossing his view allows that trooper to declare an order that cancels de Camo / Camo TO state.

    I find this mostly relevant for new players, unable to get the Discover trick (since the Reset can be negated by not getting near that troop, usually worthy if you caught a TAG or expensive troop, like a Hac Tao, or a Sphinx...).
     
  13. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    Discover against non-markers is there because in case of the target being a Holo1 fake it reveals the actual profile.
    You can declare it in active turn too, though.

    Also, upon reading Discover carefully - there seems to be no requirement to target an enemy, so you could just declare it on any of your own troops, if you can draw LoF to them from the marker. Or try and discove your own marker (although with Reset available, there's no real reason to actually do that... unless you really, REALLY want to uncover the marker without activating it)
     
    #13 Gunmage, Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  14. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    And against friendly troopers as well?
    I mean, IMP-Markers count as friendly troopers, right?
     
  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Because so many people attempt Discover against Holo troops... don't worry, you will face a shot to the face anyway XD (raw is possible, however, to Discover any enemy troop, it's the reason what I find strange).


    No, you need to be the target of a Comms attack or similar to be able to declare Reset, or be the target of a Hacking attempt, or be in the IMM-1 state.
    The troop affected by the Riotstopper is in IMM2, meaning the Reset is not allowed by the text I bolded.

    I see no mention in the rules allowing you to Discover your own troops... Wouldn't that go against the Permissive nature of the game?
     
  16. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    I was quite sure that I saw a clarification by ijw that you can always declare Reset in active turn... can't find it now, though. It seems I remembered wrong.
    Well, Discover has to be able to target friendlies - because Impersonator markers are considered allies. And the only requirement the skill has is to have LoF (in fact, there's no reference to enemies in the skill description box, only in examples and "Discover+BS Attack" maneuver description).
    You can target friendlies + you can target non-markers => you can declare Discover at your own troopers, whether markers or not. Seems like a loophole, to be honest - but so does the situation in the opening post.
     
    #16 Gunmage, Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    To be fair, the Impersonation 1 & 2 states give rules for Discover to be used on said markers, so I wouldn't have faith in that as a reason.

    Very likely, since that would be against the rules. It was mentioned several times that Reset needs to be able to be declared anytime like Dodge, or the text on things like Repeaters to be rewritten, so your confusion might have come from there.
     
  18. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    There is no direct permission to declare Discover on enemies, either, as the words "friendly" and "enemy" are not used in the wording of the skill's requirements and effects. Compare Intuitive Attack, which in the first bullet of the Effects says that it allows you to make an attack on enemy, or MediKit, which similarly states that the target must be friendly.
     
  19. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Are you sure?
    upload_2019-8-28_16-40-6.png

    Edit: i think there is no word "enemy" in the rule text to allow Discover on an eventual neutral element
     
  20. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    With that logic though it seems equipment is immune to all DTWs.


    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment#Direct_Template_Weapons

    Effects
    • These weapons require no BS Roll to hit.
    • Place the Template down when you declare the Attack to determine what the Attack affects, as that might influence the possible second Short Skill and AROs.
    • Teardrop Direct Template (Chain Rifle, Flamethrower, etc.): Place the narrow end of the Teardrop Template (Blast Focus) contacting the edge of the attacker's base or Silhouette Template. All troopers affected by the Template suffer the Attack (see diagram).

    Can't find any mention of equipment.
     
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