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Revitalized vanilla

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Asgeir, Dec 25, 2018.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean? She can't use Stop! or other hacking?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    She has a normal hacking device, meaning when you declare AD: Combat Jump, her player needs to say yes or no to the question "Will you ARO with Zoe and use Hack Transport?". Yes means she uses Hack Transport, no means she just sits there not triggering any mines and hopes for the best. Dodge wouldn't be an option.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Hack_Transport_Aircraft

    P.s. considering her low PH and high WIP, Hack Transport is likely the preferable option for her regardless.
     
  3. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    She can’t just hack him when he lands in her ZoC and eat the blast? If in line of sight or she can also dodge to engage.

    Anyway, hack transport is also at -6 so even with her 15 Wip she does that at 9. Her PH was 10. I was right in LoS BTW.

    Last night the Custodier did the hack transport, failed, and Zoe dodged, failed.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If Zoe doesn't take an ARO at first opportunity, she loses any further ARO opportunity she may or may not gain if the Liu Xing manages to land. Remember, the Liu Xing hasn't landed until after the Combat Jump and Hack Transport rolls have been made.
     
  5. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    That's where my confusion is. We always place the guy and then do the rolls.

    So the order should be:
    1. announce that I'm doing a combat jump.
    2. he decides who is going to do Hack Transport
    3. Make the PH f2f roll
    3. I place the figure where I want.
    4. Anyone that is in LoS, ZoC, or in his blast can declare an ARO as well.

    Is that right?
     
    #45 Space Ranger, Jan 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori has already gone over what you guys did wrong with the AROs for Zoe

    Putting aside the fact that your opponent should not be grouping up his stuff to give you easy multi template hits no more than he should against any faction that's known for spec firing shenanigans I just want to highlight how suicidal your drop attempt with the Liu Xing was.

    Against a Haris linked Riot Grrl with Shotgun
    • 83% chance to take 1 wound
    • 35% chance to take 2 wounds and die
    Against a Core linked Riot Grrl with a Shotgun
    • 88% chance to take 1 wound
    • 44% chance to take 2 wounds and die

    You were giving your opponent pretty good odds to straight up kill your Liu Xing as it dropped. Take what you will from those statistics.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It creates a special order sequence. To make it easier to break down, consider Combat Jump to be two skill declarations instead of one: Declare Intention of Combat Jump and Declare Result of Combat Jump. Your opponent can potentially gain AROs in both steps because Hack Transport Aircraft exists.

    1. Activation: Activate Liu Xing
    2. Order expenditure: Spend the order
    3. Declaration of the First Skill: Declare Combat Jump and indicate your targeted position. Note that the Liu Xing is not in this position yet.
    4. Declaration of AROs: Opponent declares ARO to Combat Jump. Currently this is limited to Hack Transport Aircraft or "no ARO"
      1. Roll Combat Jump PH vs all Hack Transport Aircraft. Liu Xing suffers dispersion only if failed. Drawn successes result in landing.
    5. Declaration of the Second Skill: Apply the effects of Combat Jump and place the Liu Xing in its actual position. Place the Direct Template Weapon.
    6. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player declares any AROs resulting from where the Liu Xing lands.
    7. Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make remaining Rolls as normal.
    8. Effects: Players apply all effects of successful Orders or AROs, and make ARM/BTS Rolls.
    9. Conclusion: If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects.
     
  8. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    lol i never look at the numbers. Yes I new exactly what I was doing was suicidal. I play to have fun not to win. I also just wanted to see what he could do and he did it very well. He killed Zoe, wounded the RG, and took a hit and shrugged it off. Later killing the RG.

    Thanks man! I was pretty close then. Except I shouldn't place the actual guy, just saying "something" is going to land here.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You do need to inform your opponent what is going to land, mind you. They are entitled to a fully informed decision, even if they won't have much to choose from.

    As you can tell, there's a reason why this suddenly kicked up a shitstorm outside of the Yu Jing forums when people started figuring out their hackers might be caught with potentially deadly consequences for being able to hack transports.
    ...and then the result was the weakest template attack in game so far, but that's another story. As long as they're afraid of it it's doing a job :p
     
  10. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    I have a question: the rules for AD: Combat Jump specify that it's an Entire Order Skill and that you place the trooper when you declare the order. Why is dodge not a valid ARO in that scenario? I would love to squish even more value out of the Liu Xing, but I don't understand how hackers can't react with another ARO.

    Hack Transport Aircraft seems to only add the option of another ARO available to respond to the skill.
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    AD is an exception to the usual order sequence, most AROs are only generated after the PH roll has been made and the final landing location confirmed.

    The exception is a Hacker who has the opportunity to ARO against the initial declaration of the AD skill with Hack Transport, they must either choose whatever ARO is legal at that time (which could not be dodge as they don't technically have LoF to the Active model) or forfeit their ARO for the entire order.
     
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  12. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    Thanks for the answer! Further question then: could a linked HD (5 or 4 man link) delay the declaration of the ARO and do something else instead? Dodging, for example. It says that it allows it's user to delay it's ARO declaration until after the declaration of the second short skill (if the enemy is inside it's ZoC), but AD: Combat Jump is an Entire Order skill.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sixth Sense can only delay vs. troopers inside their ZoC. Liu Xing is not on the table until after you've resolved landing and dispersion.
     
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  14. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    You can only delay against troopers in your ZoC, and I believe the hacker won't technically be in your ZoC until after it has landed, so no delaying.

    Edit: Ninja'd whilst I was fixing a printer.
     
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  15. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    Thanks dudes! I don't think many people link their HDs, but it's nice to know how this works :)
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Since Hack Transport Aircraft happens outside the normal ARO declaration sequence it's not clear that a hacker declining to use HTA loses their ARO vs. the drop troop. CB has remained silent on the matter.
     
  17. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Silent, apart from writing:

    "The Reactive Player must declare AROs for all eligible troopers immediately after the Active Player declares his Entire Order or the first Short Skill of his Order (see: Order Expenditure Sequence). Troopers that fail to do so lose their ARO against that Order."

    Hacker is eligible to ARO after Active Player declares Entire Order: AD

    If hacker fails to declare immediately, it loses it's ARO against that Order.
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    First of all, no ARO's are by default allowed vs. declaring Combat Jump or similar levels of AD. The special timing of HTA leaves this whole situation in question. Hackers not being able to shoot a hackable drop troop landing directly in front of them is a questionable result brought on by a specious reading of the rules.
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    By Default HTA lets you ARO against HTA.
    Having HTA gives the Hacker an eligible ARO to AD

    If you fail to ARO immediately after the first opportunity, you can't ARO against the order at all.

    You might not like the interaction, I'm not crazy about it myself, but calling the reading specious is a stretch.
     
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  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Again, HTA has special timing, so there's no reason to suspect it denies you your chance to ARO - the part you quoted is from the "order expenditure sequence" where it's assumed that there isn't special timing going on.
     
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