1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Revising IA

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Weathercock, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    418
    Likes Received:
    541
    It's no secret that, as good as IA has been for vanilla, and as potent as it may be in its own right as a sectorial, there are several units in there that have really been left to hang out to dry. With that in mind, I've made some attempts to point out what I'd like to see to bring those problem troopers back into a more usable state, and to encourage more varied playstyles in IA, which has the problem of feeling very mono-build centric at the moment. There have been a lot of threads about individual units, but I'd just like to consolidate my thoughts into a single point, and see what other people feel about those units and their relation with the sectorial itself as a whole.

    My goal was to focus on improving the questionable units functionality in their roles, or provide new roles for them to excel at. I also wanted to avoid gaming the system with frenzy discounts and the like, especially since I see the problem with the troubled troopers not being one of point cost, but rather of functionality and redundancy.

    Guijia Squadrons (Refurbished Model)
    - TAG - Cube, Regular, Hackable
    MOV 6-4 / CC 22 / BS 14 / PH 17 / WIP 13 / ARM 7 / BTS 6 / STR 3 / S 7 / AVA 1 (IA AVA 2)
    Equipment: ECM
    Special Skills: Martial Arts L2, Manned
    Special Fireteam. Duo: 1 Refurbished Guijia and 1 Hulang (this one might be a bit much, especially with wildcard options, I just want some input on the idea)

    Refurbished Guijia: HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Smoke Light Grenade Launcher - DA CCW
    Refurbished Guijia Lieutenant: HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Smoke Light Grenade Launcher - DA CCW

    While the Guijia was a potent tool in the Neo-Colonial Wars of the past, its aging frame and the constantly improving TAGs of competitor nations had begun to push the old warhorse into the position of a museum piece than more than an actual war asset. In order to revitalize the Guijia's relevance in the constantly evolving combat scenarios of today, a drastic repurposing was required. Instead of its traditional role as a firepiece, the state empire reinvisioned it as a fire-support piece and linebreaker. Armour along the TAG's joints was reduced and redeveloped in order to allow for a finer degree of movement and faster reactions in close quarters, along with pilots adopting a more close-combat centric curriculum in order to take advantage of this. Moreover, the Guijia's weaponry loadout was made lighter in order to facilitate gear that would allow it to safely approach the front line.
    With these modifications to the venerable Guijia frame, not only is it more potent a force than ever before, it can take its rightful place at the very front of the State Empire's military forces.

    The fluff excerpt sums up most of what I was going for pretty succinctly. As a firepiece, the current Guijia is simply outclassed by so many troopers both within and outside of Yu Jing. But by repurposing it as above, things start to become a bit interesting. The most notable addition here being that of smoke in an IA unit. By paying the costly fee required to field this unit, IA can now get access to smoke. But because of that high cost, the playstyle of the army is changed considerably should it choose to accomodate one.

    Liu Xing Jump Infantry - HI - Cube, Regular, Hackable
    MOV 4-4 / CC 21 / BS 14 / PH 14 / WIP 14 / ARM 4 / BTS 6 / W 1 / S 2 / AVA 1 (IA AVA 2)
    Special Skills: Bioimmunity, AD: Combat Jump, Explode LX, Kinematika L1, V: NWI, Martial Arts L1

    Liu Xing: Boarding Shotgun - Pistol, DA CCW
    Liu Xing: Spitfire - Pistol, AP CCW

    Liu Xing (Specialist Operative): Multi Rifle, D-Charges - Pistol, DA CCW
    Liu Xing Hacker (Assault Hacking Device): Boarding Shotgun - Pistol, AP CCW
    Liu Xing Hacker (Killer Hacking Device): Multi Rifle - Pistol, DA CCW

    Designed to be more brick like, closer to an AD equivalent to a Hac Tao than a poor Tiger replacement. This profile is intended to be used with the Tiger being added back to IA, which is why it will come with an increased point cost. Martial Arts and an improved CC profile allow him to move more stealthily once he's landed, and actually hit hard in CC if the opportunity presents itself. Improved PH allows him more desperately needed reliability on landing, and access to a KHD profile (intentionally inflated in cost by the multi-rifle and DA CCW) means that he can somewhat support himself against enemy repeater nets. WIP 14 assists in this, but also fits more in line with the fluff of them being Tiger alumni.

    Shang Ji Invincibles - HI - Cube, Regular, Hackable

    MOV 6-4 / CC 18 / BS 13 / PH 14 / WIP 13 / ARM 4 / BTS 6 / W 2 / S 2 / AVA 1 (IA AVA 5)
    Special Skills: Kinematika L1, Fireteam: Duo, Fireteam: Core, Super-Jump, Climbing Plus, Tactical Awareness
    Special Fireteam. Wildcard Trooper: Up to 1 Shang Ji can join any Fireteam from this Sectorial Army

    Shang Ji: Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + Tinbot B (Deflector L2) - Pistol, Shock CCW
    Shang Ji Lieutenant: Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + Tinbot B (Deflector L2) - Pistol, Shock CCW

    Shang Ji (Fireteam: Haris): Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + Tinbot B (Deflector L2) - Pistol, Shock CCW
    Shang Ji: Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun - Pistol, Shock CCW
    Shang Ji: Spitfire - Pistol, Shock CCW
    Shang Ji Hacker (Assault Hacking Device): Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower - Pistol, Shock CCW
    Shang Ji Paramedic (Medikit): Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower - Pistol, Shock CCW

    Since Tai Sheng is already pretty much everything the Shang Ji should have been, you could just as easily dispose of the Shang Ji entirely. Instead, however, I'll focus more on the "superior" aspect of the power armour itself. Giving Tactical Awareness to all profiles, and also improving heavily on the unit's mobility with Super-Jump and Climbing Plus, should make it a much more versatile tooper, both in and out of fireteams.


    ...Also... Daofei... Do it.
     
    #1 Weathercock, Feb 4, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  2. InMac

    InMac Cat.IE~~

    Joined:
    May 24, 2018
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    145
    Actually i prefer the current profiles, your ideas calls to increase a several points cost each unit.

    I never pick the Guija, so i can't say nothing special for him or expecting to up-grade an a "normal" TAG if he dosen't have "remote presence".

    Liu Xing i like the actual idea of him... Fraacta v2.0, no need to be an a super-elite-parachute cost more than 45pts as the basic BSG if you are expecting your upgrades.

    Also your shang ji's weapon set losing the most usable rifle option... the MULTI rifle :/ they need to be more cheap as 3pts or less actual cost or upgrading 1pt abillity like WIP or BS, but they are OK and playable like a haris and agressive core in LI in IA.

    For that LT options, i would say to you... Yu Jing LT's best option actually are the Daoying Hacker... can't say any more.
     
    #2 InMac, Feb 4, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  3. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    228
    It seems like CB deliberately designed IA NOT to have smoke, so I wouldn't hold my breath for that smoke LGL.
     
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes Received:
    2,661
    I think the main point was to prevent it from being spammed. If you put it on a costly and prohibitive chasis such as the Guijia and make it the Guijia's "thing" it's probably fine. I'd even be happy if they made it an Eclipse launcher.
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,146
    Likes Received:
    9,614
    I think I like the Guijia and definitely like the Liu Xing changes, but I'm not sold on the Shang Ji changes (mostly because they'd be incredibly expensive!).

    I am actually kinda leaning towards a much more radical re-design of the sectorial:
    • All the new 'light' units (Daoying, Hulang, Haidao, and Zuyong, but NOT the Liu Xing) go to ARM3 BTS3 1W+NWI+Shock Immune HI as the base. This means Tai Sheng loses a wound, but would still be a BTS6 Zuyong otherwise. Bioimmunity can be an upgrade for the Daoying. Zuyong and Tai Sheng would go down about 3pts, Haidao would go up a bit due to gaining BTS, Daoying would go up 2-3 pts. This wouldn't be the first time CB has dramatically changed a unit, most of the Greeks and the Suryats got re-designed in Paradiso N2.
    • Zuyong lose the TacAware profiles entirely. If you want TacAware, you need to take Shang Ji, and don't have TacAware HMGs at all!
    • Liu Xing can stick with your proposal, basically a Crane/Shang Ji with AD, because Tigers are staying in the sectorial. Heavy AD trooper, though that KHD might be too much of a no-brainer choice.
    • Daofei stay in, but have lighter/cheaper Zhencha (possibly with FD2 as a balancer) as support. Daofei will be AVA1 here, can be AVA2+ in White Banner.
    • Shang Ji need to be worth taking, but not 60pts expensive. I'm leaning more towards 4-4MOV, CC18 or 19, BS13, PH13, WIP13, ARM4, BTS6, with Kinematica L2, Deflector L2, and TacAware natively. No MA skills. Weapons list is probably fine as-is, though I might add a Multi+LGL. Plus, this means that if you want a TacAware rapid-fire weapon, you gotta live with the Spitfire instead of the HMG. Shang Ji would lose the limited Wildcard (and just have the general Wildcard rule), so that you could take 2+ TacAware models in the same link team. This makes Shang Ji superior to Wu Ming and Hsien suits for doorkicking, but also shows them to have been too expensive for total deployment. Hence the majorly less-capable Zuyong as the 'Line Infantry' HI suit.
    • While I generally like your refurbished Guijia, I'm not entirely sure about the loss of the MultiHMG. Leaving it as an AP HMG might be better, since the various 'Main Battle TAGs' (Squalo, Guijia, Lizard, Mag Guard, and Raicho) are all starting to be adjusted off that baseline. I think a single expensive smoke-chucker would be OK for list balance, you're not likely to have both a Deathstar Core and a TAG in a list with IA unit costs.
     
    Deltervees, darthchapswag and Wyrmnax like this.
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    8,541
    In general I think these directions are decent. The actual specifics means the profiles get very expensive, however, and as has been noted the smoke design choice.

    I think Tai Sheng shouldn't be avoided for Shang-Ji and Liu Xing. Beef up that e-war defense but keep bullet protection on the lighter side (for HI).
    The suggested Liu Xing in particular is far too chunky and seems to want to be an AD Crane. Don't think 60+ points on a ln AD fart is all that great. That said, borrowing Shang-Ji PH and CC has great merits for the Liu Xing specifically.

    Crazy idea for Guijia: sectorial specific profile. White Banner has forward deployment alternative and IA has an AD4 alternative. (Was going to suggest AD3 but realized it'd never be landed like that because of base size Dispersion would be baaaad for it, and it'd exclusively be walked on) Probably these would have a different gun setup such as double Heavy Shotgun.
     
  7. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,367
    Likes Received:
    2,022
    Jesus Christ no. If the MO Tikbalang has taught us anything, it's that AP HMG is vomit-inducingly expensive for a marginal gain. I would much rather have a naked HMG than an AP HMG and I would much rather keep the Multi HMG, rather than being left with a much worse AP HMG, for only an insignificant point deduction.
     
    Pierzasty and Commoner1 like this.
  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes Received:
    2,661
    FD1 isn't particularly useful. Just pushes the Guijia further into "I don't want to go here because I'll get hacked or die or both" territory. Missions already grant the Guijia FD1 and you don't use it on those anyway.
     
  9. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2017
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    829
    I'd be totally fine with ad4 guija. I've played with and against it doing the outrage missions and its alot of fun.
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes Received:
    2,661
    They'd never give it back to us. They were so scared of the Liu Xing being overpowered it came out as lukewarm garbage there's no way they'd put an AD TAG back in the game.
     
    SKOZZOKONZ likes this.
  11. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2017
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    829
    I dont think it's super likely but I think it's in the realm of possibility. I think they were more afraid of explode LX being an NPE and I would agree they will probably never do an ad tag with explode. They've been playing around with giving tags AD in special missions and the online campaigns. Maybe they will pull a varuna and have white banner division guija who can airborne deploy since that's technically who we saw do it in the outrage manga.
     
  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    2,378
    Likes Received:
    1,830
    Personally I'd just like it add Special Duo of Guijia + Weibing OR Husong. It wouldn't be able to have Wildcard because a special fireteam must have those specific things. Now that would be different.
     
    krossaks likes this.
  13. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    448
    Yeah, I can support that. the cheap or light HI being NWI + Shock Immunity.

    I do think, however that this is a reflex of a second wound being just too expensive, but that is a discussion for another time. I could support this.

    This would be fantastic. Loose TacAware everywhere, and gain it on Shang Ji. Now you suddenly have a reason for including them on the lists.


    The CC capable TAG is interesting. I do not like that idea of giving him smoke too much, but it might work. Would also give him a EXP CCW and either keep the MULTI HMG or at least a AP HMG - you really want a main battle TAG being able to take down another TAG at range if push comes to shove. Another option would make it a truly melee TAG, but ditch the flamethrower - you already have a close range defence - melee.
     
  14. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    543
    I like the guijia upgrades, smoke could be fun and not overpowered (ofc if it don't make the guijia even more expensive).

    For the Liu Xiu, i think CB avoided in propuse to make it a strong HI for balance porpouses. Anyway i like it as it is (anyway, KHD porfile won't hurt ). The main problem with it is about his role, it can't solo strike in round one easy and is more list deppendend (that why it see a lot more play in vanilla even with the tiger soldier)
     
  15. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,069
    Likes Received:
    2,381
    Man, You really miss the O-yoroi! The Uprising syndrome strikes again...

    Stealth on a tag is a funny thing considering the noise one of this things should do. I bet they'll take that away of the O-yoroi someday

    There are a few things to consider on current Guijia whithout loosing it's spirit as the Chinese turtle guardian.
    • Some skill to arrange manned TAGs and put them at a similar compared to remote presence ones. It can be engineer+, a second level of unconscious, or a way of reroll engineer tests
    • DA/EXP CCW... AP CC is so miserable for a CC19 TAG that it's utterly pointless the CC investment. And the upgrade wouldn't be so expensive.
    • A +1 ARM boost (ARM 9 tag on cover are fucking Tough even against AP ammo)
    • A mainly defensive loadout. Full auto2, Marksmanship X, feuerbach, heavy shotgun and tinbot C
    Too frigging expensive for a trooper that can fail the jump test and be deployed on on your deployment zone (the oniwabans at least have a TO camo that can push you towards using it on such an ocasion)

    I'm fairly happy with the actual profile and I thing it only needs some makeup

    I'll be happy just by rising CC to 17-18 to the actual liuxing. The liuxing is fucking incompetent in Close quarters where it should shine (almost like a zanshi level of incompetence) and engage is the way to nullify it in one confronted test. I still think CC is highly overcosted, so it may be posible to achieve it without a high cost increase. LV1 of MA could be anothe way to aproach... but I don't think a Explode-landing HI deserves Stealth

    PH 13 would be my second suggestion in order to improve a little it's odds during the Jump and rise up to 13 it's CC damage. but it's a bonus

    Move 6-2 and tac-sense as base skill. just by making it an asured wildcard pickup. Removing the SWC tax over the tac-awa should be just enough to improve the shang-ji and made it a valuable asset. But the Move 6-2 will make it an interesting duo piece too. If they think it's too much, there is the possibility to give them just AVA4 to avoid a mass order coreteam. They can also give the more defensive profiles a DA CCW.

    Those changes mean just 3-4 changes on the profiles. But with a review over the CC costs it could be dirt cheap.
     
    krossaks likes this.
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    8,541
    @Mc_Clane Sphinx, Cutter and Uhlans have had Stealth since at least N3 if not longer. On a scale, Marker state on TAGs is a lot worse than Stealth on a non-Marker capable TAG that's typically got Perimeter weapons betraying it.
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,146
    Likes Received:
    9,614
    I actually don't think the second wound is too expensive, considering what it means in-game: One mistake in positioning or flubbed roll that you get to ignore. That's really valuable.

    It's also why I think Symbiomates are far too cheap to be balanced, if they cost as much as a second wound (each), they'd be much less gamebreaking. And then you'd probably need to add some more points to their cost due to the flexibility of putting them wherever you want (or, if wounds have a scaling cost function, 'Mates get costed at the most-expensive-wound level).


    Yeah, that's why I suggested that change. Because right now, the two TacAware Zuyong profiles are auto-includes, and I hate auto-includes in Infinity.


    I really don't like losing the HFT, there are some melee monsters (anything with a monoCCW, Ajax, Achilles, most EXP CCWs) you don't want getting into melee and the flammenwerfer makes a very good "don't CC this model" argument. I will note that in N3, the Cutter lost it's HFT (yes, new players, the Cutter used to be a Squalo with TO camo!), mostly to make it CC-able.
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  18. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,069
    Likes Received:
    2,381
    Yep, I know. I'm Just saying that it's weird by definition and I don't see it fit on a TAG. They're not so useful if you are already in marker state (What are the only skills doable againsta a marker state?), so I think they can take out stealth from Camouflaje and Martial art skills and give it individually when intended to make the game less absurd in those cases. (But that's my thinking)

    CC monsters can Just dodge at base PH (12-14-16) not so bad odds and then your tag is dead. I do prefer a BS20, damage 16AP Heavy shotgun if they give me choice
     
    #18 Mc_Clane, Feb 5, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  19. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,941
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    Which also nerfs this army because your extra orders, something I consider to be IA's selling point, are now found on pretty damn expensive models.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    8,541
    I think in general Stealth on a TAG should be viewed from a gameplay perspective. It offers a small amount of tactical utility and it's not like O-Yoroi is all that powerful, so it is fine and makes it a bit more unique and interesting.

    P.s. (yes, p.s. in middle of the post) Speaking of O-Yoroi, as it turns out AP HMG isn't always a huge extra expense. Gaining MA1 and AP for less than a fiver, but only if you're not a kniggit.

    In a contest between a Heavy Shotgun and a Heavy Flamethrower, it's not entirely a dead race, but the choice is certainly interesting.
    The relative cost, however, is not. Replace the flamer of Guijia with a BSG or HSG and it'll become almost as costly as an Avatar.
    Unfortunately a lot of things come down to what other models you can afford to fit into the list at the same time and if you have to sack the Engineer and their helper bot to get the alternative, the list becomes that much less flexible.