1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Responsibilities for right hidden info ?

Discussion in 'ITS' started by karolis, Mar 13, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,423
    Likes Received:
    4,265
    • Mmmmm.... sorry, but if you want to ask the TO's of the different Satellite Tournaments, please send them a Private Message. The moment the matter was posted publicly, the OP assumed the consequences of that, which include people deciding that he protested too late, and that it was not possible, or fair, to change the result.

    The truth is that even asking people from CB to change the invitation from one player to another is asking them to sort a mess made by others, and their answer would be, regardless of which "side" they choose, to remove the Satellite's system altogether, or to downgrade it to a simple "the winner gets a seat in the Interplanetario, unless he was already on the accepted list, in which case the 2nd one gets it".

    In short: every one of us have a "personal responsibility", which in this case means to help the other player counting points (I always say "I think I am in Retreat, let's stop for a moment while I check"), orders, or whatever. Remember, your reactive turn includes you helping the other player to play! Not on decisions or the like, but rules and ARO's. THAT is included in being gentlemanly, and also in having a backup (more than once I have said my Target Number without applying negatives, for example, and my opponent has corrected me).

    My personal opinion? Asking 3 times is not enough to say "I did what I could, the Organization failed me". Asking to count the dead points WOULD have, and I don't understand why he just rolled with getting the same response several times if he wasn't happy with the answer.

    • So, if I were a TO, I'd say to you the same thing @Leigabar said: once the tournament has finished, it's done. It's hard, yes, but that how things are, because if the things were to re-winded, then I could present you an hypothetical case of the loser of a high stakes tournament claiming after the end that his rival did this or that, and turning it into a "he says, he says".

    The problem is that not always you can have a bilingual judge for the last round, devoted to only the finals table. And they finished with 30 mins to spare, so there was literally no pressure to deliver the results.


    EDIT: As an aside, Leibarg WAS ALREADY IN the accepted list for the Interplanetario. So even less reason to doubt him.
     
    #81 xagroth, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
    SirNando likes this.
  2. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,983
    Likes Received:
    5,654
    I said I can see the arguments for and against, there might even be more complications than that, Satellites are still new and problems have yet to occur so they can be observed and addressed if it needs be.
     
    xagroth and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,073
    Likes Received:
    3,928
    CB can, however, revoke the right of an organization or other host to host such an event, if they are not doing so at a level of conduct (and competence) that is satisfactory to them. I hope they give this a good look.

    Considering that you are not allowed to look at your opponent's actual list during play, this is bullshit. That would have been cheating; and the player in question surely would have refused that request.

    Honestly I think cheating is more likely than a mistake, in this case, despite the accused's protestations. And they seem to have gotten someone else involved in it, someone to claim to be a judge nearby to back them up and pull the wool over @karolis 's eyes.

    I should also add that it's a contentious behavior to enter your opponent's list into Army to begin with - making the verification of enemy retreat totals their responsibility in any way is asking people to be responsible for information they cannot legally know. It must remain the sole responsibility of the player in question, with real consequences if they misrepresent it for advantage. The fact that the tournament organizer was unwilling to punish the offender is *very* worrying - they are sending the message that they do not care about a fair result at their events, and signalling to people willing to engage in cheating that even if you get caught, if the round has ended you're in the clear.
     
    Pierzasty likes this.
  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,983
    Likes Received:
    5,654
    I think Ill evoke a modified version of Hanlon's razor.

    Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained with misunderstanding.

    I think I said it before stop accusing people and focus on the subject and the subject is not to accuse people or change what happened, but discuss how what happened can be addressed in future events of that magnitude.
     
  5. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    Just my opinion on how this kind of stuff should be handled after the results have been reported. Be it deliberately or not, if something like this changes the entire game result it is serious. I know how MTG TO's would deal with it, but Infinity is something entirely else, so... here's how I see it:

    During the tournament, after the game, before next tournament round started : Offender should be granted an instant loss, the opponent should be granted instand win, by switching the exact result.
    During the tournament, after next tournament round started: Offender should be penalized with sufficient -OP penalty and drop in the final score. No compensation for the opponent.
    After the tournament: There should be some kind of penalty that would ensure the offender gets penalized. Have no idea what kind of penalty - Infinity Organized Play is somehow not entirely pro... I would assume some kind of soft ban for the next big event that TO would keep in mind, or something similar as a warning, then if things hapen time and time again, season ban for ITS. No compensation for the opponent.

    I do not think that after the next tournament round starts there is a possibility and fair way to grant any boon to the victim of such a situation. 'Sorry' seem like a sufficient reward - shit happens, next time bring it to the TO during the game, or just after the game.

    In situation where this is clearly TO's fault (which in the above situation seem like it's not), I would suggest granting the player free entry next time.
     
    Hecaton and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  6. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Messages:
    537
    Likes Received:
    522
    The reality of the situation is that as Infinity grows, we are going to have to start standardizing how we handle different tournament situations (I even made a topic about it). There needs to be clear cut violations and degrees of punishments, ranging from warnings to complete disqualification (with DQ only being implemented is you knowingly and maliciously cheated). Just as an example, I think this situation as described seems appropriate to issue a game loss, but with no penalties carrying into the next round or the entire tournament. Moving forward, that kind of standardization between tournaments/warcors is something that I think would be really healthy.
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,423
    Likes Received:
    4,265
    There are something called Byes. I think it's fairier to give a "bye" to the offended, and a 0 to the offender. Bear in mind that Infinity has three layers of relevancy in a given tournament: First, is Tournament Points, ranging from 0 (you lost) to 3 (you won by more than 5 Objective Points), with 1 being a tie, and the critical part here is that they determinate your next rival to a degree; then you have Objective Points, which are the number of objectives you fulfilled for the mission (and are dependent on a lot of factors: getting a secondary objective for which you don't even have the specialist, or that yours was killed, Datatracker killed, etc..., the unfairiness would be against other players here with just the switch); and finally we have the "victory points", or points of troops alive, which are used to solve ties if there was one with Tournament points, then with Objective points.

    Covered on the before point (give a Bye). However, proof needs to be presented, and that is harder after the game has ended and people are playing the next round.

    Really fair, "I" cheat on the first Satellite, then get banned on the second, which is a continent away but I sing in just to evade the ban. Then, if by mistake "I" cheat on the last one, I get banned from the Interplanetario...

    Frankly speaking, the scene is not pro at all, the Satellites are so valued because the winner gets a spot in the Interplanetario (and as I mentioned before, Leirbag already had a position, so there was no real incentive to win, aside from the donated prices, but seriously? This is not a scene where the prize is worth hundreds or thousands of euro/dollars). As for the pole in the ITS, the only real value is to be #1 for bragging rights... and this ITS for getting an improved HVT for his faction.

    I think only the Interplanetario costs a real amount of money to enter, this Satellite had a huge "ticket cost" because it was a package deal including the hotel and the like. Which leads me to the final point:

    People making ITS tournaments are not official CB staff. Sure thing, Warcors are there, but they don't earn money for that (they earn "warcor points" they can use to lower the costs of things like tournament packs, get access to new big stuff beforehand so they can do more demos, etc... kinda like a VIP pass), but you don't need to be a Warcor to organize an ITS event. The Satellites are events that have been given more spotlight, and receive CB's staff presence for the PR and promotion they do, but that's it. And the ITS document leaves a lot to the TO.

    So, essentially what you are asking with a "normalization" and the like is for CB to hire staff that will have to ensure a policy guideline they would need to develop aswell.
     
    SirNando likes this.
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,073
    Likes Received:
    3,928
    @psychoticstorm considering this player's ITS ranking that's a strange assumption to make.
     
  9. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    1,077
    You see this is where things tend to get a bit subjective and why they would need to be set out before hand. I've run plenty of events both for infinity and for other games, even down to writing tournament packs that then went on to widespread use. There are times when a bye doesn't really cut it, in the original post the player by all accounts crushing the other one, having a bye result may instead be a major set back. I've seen situations where the bye has really undercut somebody or has vastly over positioned them, the ITS method for handling a bye especially in only a 3 round event is a bit swingy IMO.

    It's the same as the many times somebody who is losing has then really unsportingly just said "I concede take 10 points and full ap destroyed" That 10 & full AP may be really overgenerous to the other player, and a bye may not reflect the winning players achievement very well or when a game times out unfairly, thus far I've seen no Tournament system that can adequately address either situation satisfactorily.
     
  10. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    605
    The reason this happened is the way questions were asked and what information was communicated. We humans are forgetful. And if you forget something, you cannot be aware of this fact (that you forgot something), so being asked 3 times "Are you sure you are in Retreat?" most probably won't yield any results and won't make the person recall the forgotten. The way people think is associative, so instead of asking the same thing twice or thrice, the better approach would be to change the nature of the question. Explaining your concerns over the remaining points count or mentioning that you suspect your opponent might have forgotten some undeployed troops would clear the issue on the spot.

    Regarding what to do with this.. I think no solution would be good enough. So best way for me would be to approach the offending player and explain the situation to them, and agree on the resolution in a calm and courteous manner. This is but a game, and I believe there is nothing in it that couldn't be solved by mutual agreement.

    P.S. If I were the offender, I would make sure that @karolis would be declared the winner. Victory achieved by mistake is a rotten one.
     
    pedrogzc, Mask and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,423
    Likes Received:
    4,265
    Yes, but. Trying to foresee everything is a foolish errand, and while a Bye surely won't be a fair solution for every single one solution, it has several advantages atm:

    First, it's something that already exists. Thus we are all more or less familiar with it.

    Second, we are talking about big tournaments where people are really playing for something more significant than bragging rights and 8-12 bucks of prizes (and then you take into account how much you pay to play, and the reality is that you might be winning 20% over what you really paid, in predefined stuff). Those tend to be 5 round tournaments, not three, thus the problem of impact is less severe.

    Third, we save ourselves from "DA LAW!!!", placing different penalties depending on different offenses requires codification and the like.

    Fourth, and what I think it's most important here, if a Bye doesn't cut it for whatever reason, the TO can still kick the offender from his tournament. Sure, a really grievous situation need to arise for that, but the possibility is there. Not to mention, the TO can also ban that player from his events.

    Right now the situation is kinda like the wild west, there is no unified law because the community is so busy growing, there is so little incentive on cheating, and there are no need for a codified set of infractions and punishments. Which means each TO has to manage things as they come, and this situation has been blown a little out of proportion, I'd say, because the TO wasn't really able to change things after everything was wrapped up.
     
  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,983
    Likes Received:
    5,654
    I would not say Magic and Wotc is a stellar example on how to handle people cheating, moving onward, @Hecaton it is not an assumption it is a stance.

    I am not going to debate it and I am not going to assume things on people he could have easily done it by mistake and since there are no concrete 110% verifiable evidence he did it with malice he did by mistake as far as I am concerned.

    The thread is not about finding guilty and convicting them, I need to repeat.
     
    xagroth and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,073
    Likes Received:
    3,928
    Again, the fact that this did not happen is shameful on the part of the "winner", whether they cheated or it was an honest mistake.
     
  14. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Messages:
    537
    Likes Received:
    522
    CB already works closely with Warcors and is open to their advice, as evidenced by the new proxy rule. I don't think it would be a stretch for warcors and TOs to create a proposal, and then only give it to CB to approve or make comments. Even if CB didn't want any part of that, I don't see anything bad about us starting to think bigger in terms of a unified format. Since we are in the planning stages, the enire community would get to weigh in on the initial proposal (for better or worse).
     
  15. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,365
    Likes Received:
    4,490
    I'm not saying your idea is a bad one; petitioning CB to make changes is definitely a valid thing to do.

    That being said, I don't think Warcors had much to do with the updated proxy rules. As far as I could see, they just did that because they wanted to, not because anyone asked them to.
     
    xagroth likes this.
  16. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest River Cool is where I belong

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    783
    Players are required to supply the TO with their army lists. The Mobile Army App indicates the retreat threshold. I'm baffled why there could be confusion here, unless nobody involved, including judges and TO, used the mobile app. This sounds very much like a poor organizational problem,which is something that plagues tournaments and conventions all the time. I have seen the chaos first-hand. Not pretty. OTOH, the Army Builder does not print the retreat threshold anymore.

    @Koni, I note the online and downloadable versions of the Army Builder lack the feature to show the retreat threshold. Perhaps petition -V- to add it, along with the order and command token info? I bet some people use their laptops instead of their mobile devices while playing. TO's certainly do. It would be nice if the Army Builder printed the retreat threshold like it did for the N2 Army Builder.
     
    chromedog and xagroth like this.
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,073
    Likes Received:
    3,928
    @Red Harvest Not gonna stop an actual cheater, but it would be a nice addition regardless. Don't think it would have solved this issue.
     
  18. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    937
    Likes Received:
    1,938
    I'm curious about what was actually discussed between the accused and the non-judge organizer in OP's story.
     
    Aldo likes this.
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,073
    Likes Received:
    3,928
    "What do you know about €500?"
     
  20. Dude

    Dude Lazy Bushi
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    807
    @Hecaton
    Moderators have repeatedly warned about attacking other players. Perhaps you should edit your post before they give you a vacation (which I certainly would if I had the power).
     
    Aldo and A Mão Esquerda like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.