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Responsibilities for right hidden info ?

Discussion in 'ITS' started by karolis, Mar 13, 2018.

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  1. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    The retreat rule in its current format is not the best. HOWEVER, removing it completely is an absolutely terrible idea.

    Bad, naughty players!
     
    xagroth likes this.
  2. Atsiuski

    Atsiuski Member

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    Let's keep us on topic.
    A player makes (intentional or not) mistake. What should be the judges decision? No one is offering a solution. Mostly "sorry, too late".

    And since @Leirbag must be following the discussion, I would like to address the same question to you:

    Could you please state here, that you, as world's no. 1 Player, do not know your army list by heart, and UNINTENTIONALLY forgot your 80pts of troops in Hidden deployment?
    When asked for the second time, you still UNINTENTIONALLY forgot.
    When asked for the third time, in Spanish language, you still UNINTENTIONALLY forgot.

    (and coincidentally it put you in Retreat, which made you win instead of loose the game).

    Spanish Google translation:

    Y dado que @Leirbag debe seguir la discusión, me gustaría dirigirle la misma pregunta:

    ¿Podría decir aquí, que usted, como no del mundo? 1 jugador, no conoces tu lista de ejército de memoria, y SIN DENTRO olvidaste tu 80pts. de tropas en el despliegue oculto.
    Cuando se te pregunta por segunda vez, sigues SIN INTENCIONAR.
    Cuando se le preguntó por tercera vez, en idioma español, usted todavía se olvidó ININTENCIONAMENTE.
    (y casualmente te puso en Retreat, que te hizo ganar en lugar de perder el juego).
     
    #42 Atsiuski, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
    chromedog likes this.
  3. Silagast

    Silagast Señor de los cabezas huecas,o eran hombres huecos?

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    Please, take note that @Leigabar WAS NOT the player at the final game.

    Many people have given their oppinion based only on what they have read, with some information being omitted. Please, be prudent before shooting too fast or to the wrong person.

    Thanks
     
    nazroth and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Erh, as a person who ACTUALLY played against him at the tournament, I can vouch that his behaviour was absolutely stellar and was probably the player with the best sportsman attitude, at the tournament. He voluntarily brought a chess clock for a fair distribution of time, he always took the time to discuss the table with his opponent BEFORE deploying and rolling for Lt. He was always vigilant and corrected any mistakes he made himself, instantly.
    Your post is unconstructive and you're attempting to tarnish his reputation on a global forum (in a small game were many people know each other and word of mouth quickly spreads), in a response to a legitimate complaint that he has, were it sounds like the TO's failed him severely.
     
    n21lv, Pierzasty and karolis like this.
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    TOs should have retroactively given the player who made the miscalculation a game loss (and OP a win). Anything else is encouraging "sloppy" play (i.e. cheating).

    Infinity already has a problem with cheating at high level play.

    And honestly it's a point of shame for the player who did make that mistake that, when catching it, they didn't go to the judge themselves and suggest the result be adjusted. If I made that mistake in a high-stakes match I would feel like scum if I didn't.
     
    #45 Hecaton, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
    the huanglong likes this.
  6. Atsiuski

    Atsiuski Member

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    @Leigabar: cheers mate, I am so sorry about the name mix-up. I altered the post.
     
  7. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Oh boy so much yes!
     
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  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So can some faction has at least a little bit of non-leathal but "final" ammunition like ADHL, EM, etc. ?
     
  9. sparco_sj

    sparco_sj EIC 2019!
    Warcor

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    Debeis teber en cuenta el comunicado oficial. Que explica la posicion tomada por la organizacion.

    You must take into account the official statement. That explains the position taken by the organization.
     
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  10. Koni

    Koni BanHammer
    CB Staff

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    This will be the first and only warning: I don't want to see any other personal disqualification, aggressive behaviour or bad words against other players.

    If you cannot discuss the topic in polite manners, obviously I'll close inmediately this thread.

    Thank you.
     
  11. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I disagree entirely. N2 had no retreat and competitive games were garbage. The mission didn’t matter because you could just run around in the last turn and pick up objectives, after you tabled the opponent.
    Furthermore, it doesn’t ONLY reward getting killed. I’ve sealed plenty of games by denying my opponent a chance to do anything properly because I put him in retreat for the last round, because I knew I had a major victory and wanted to make sure that he couldn’t deny me any points.
     
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  12. Atsiuski

    Atsiuski Member

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    Point taken, I got carried away. No offense anyone.
    I am still trying to discuss this case, with no personal feelings:

    A player makes a big mistake (does not matter, intentional or not) which might have changed the outcome.
    Please, no "it is the other's player's problem" statements, this is ridiculous.
    I have red the official response, and I think this is the easiest way to get off this situation for the judges.
    What SHOULD the official response be to this?


    There are others who agree that this (mistakes) can become a real problem if the official response will always be "it was both player's mistake".
     
  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    First of all, I have lost tournament points (a 9-1 turned into a 3-1 in Higly Classified, for example) for badly counting my objectives. I have lost tournament games because both me and my opponent "forgot" a rule (my 3 points Yudbot meleeing a O-Yoroi, the TAG rolled a 1... then started Reset and hit, despite it being an IMM-2 state). I even was distracted by a warcor while my opponent did not execute the Extemely Impetuous orders of his Kuang Shi on Biotecvore (because the Su Jian would eat at least 2 fire templates).
    On other tournament, my opponent deployed a Hac Tao on the middle of the table, even after asking him twice if it had infiltration (I stopped him about Shinobu's being deployed on my deployment zone, since I know for a fact that is reserved to Speculo killers and Fiday... and the legendary Kempeitai against YJ armies I heard some rumors about XD).
    In all of those, I have never thought there was ill-intent, nor any kind of treacherous behaviour. Just honest mistakes. Because if the game is between gentlemen, then doubting my opponent's word means doubting his honor, thus breaking the whole premise of the game. I might lose a game, but it's a game, and if my opponent can't win against me without cheating it is his problem, he will find himself facing people who will catch him sooner or later, and become isolated and carrying a stigma as a cheater. So, you see, I believe that cheating is not worth it in Infinity.

    Granted, we are talking about a place for the Interplanetario, but still if the doubt was there, as it was mentioned before asking to add the dead points would have suffice.
    And we are talking about the fifth game of a 2 day tournament. I have trouble keeping my focus on just three games tournaments, making a lot of mistakes on the third round, so I can empathize. Not to mention, it wouldn't be the first time I totally forget my TO trooper until after the game has finished, and we are talking about 400 pts lists... meaning it is totally possible that the TO were printed on a second page, thus overlooked.

    Finally, as for the Retreat!!!! Rule, as far as I understand it with the Baggage bots, Leibarg would need to have more than 110 (440 * 0.25) points of troops adding both alive and in reserve.
    That means that it is entirely possible to have 109 alive and reserve points (Dr Worm + Ikadron x2 + Noctifer AHD + Malignos FO), which to me gives even more credence to Leirbag's claim that he forgot, if one of his practice lists carried this combo instead of 2 Malginos AHD (which are 41 points each) or even 2 Malignos FO.

    As for the organization explanation, I think it is correct at 100%, but lacks a critical point: considering how mobility goes in this age, a disclaimer should be added to big tournaments, in which the organization should not be expected to provide translation services (meaning it can provide them but it's not obliged to, so it's a courtesy), and that the official language of the event will be the local one. After all, I won't expect to drop on a French-hosted satellite and to have people play with me in Spanish (or english). I will certainly be grateful if they do the effort, but I cannot hold it against the organization.

    Retreat is there so I can't win the game by going first, with a killy list and a single, Hidden Deployment, Specialist (like a Mk2 AHD posthuman), using my first turn to Alpha Strike you, the second to do the same, and the third, when you have no models on the table, touch a console.

    You can always refuse to kill the enemy troop in ARO, using non-lethal options instead of killy ones. Like Adhesive Launchers, if your faction have them, or Flash Pulse spam.
     
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  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Teach me, Sensei. I would like to know how to unlock the feature of suiciding my army and win by retreat and then, somehow, tell my opponent that he can't have his turn, because somehow the game prematurely ends BEFORE my opponent gets his following turn, you know... Before I'm ACTUALLY in retreat?
    People always seems to talk about how you can actively suicide to go into retreat when, in fact, that's entirely impossible.
    Besides, if you're killing enough stuff and get your opponent down to 80 points, he's usually down to a point were he's quite harmless anyway (for the most part).
     
  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Usually by placing your troops exposed so the enemy have to FtF with them for each order, so your troops die on Reactive turn and you can do something in Active one. This requires the enemy to knowingly kill you, however, so it tends to not work... It almost happened to me (unintentionally) on a Tounament, I forgot Aquisition's deployment zone is 8' bigger than usual (10cm bigger), and I was running a Limited Insertion list against 18 Nomad models or so... My turn was used on killing some big shots of the enemy and get my Marut possessed twice, then my enemy killed all but 4 of my models and the Marut got wrecked, on my turn I was on LoL and Retreat, so I managed a Secondary Objective and a console capture & control. He won because he controlled the center piece with a Moran, 4-3 (or 3-2 or 3-1, can't remember) was it... I don't like that table because it lacks stairs, but has very tall buildings (that is, 20cm or 16' tall) that somehow find themselves on the middle of the table.

    EDIT: My opponent miscalculated, since the Marut lost her last wound against a Mk1 Engineer posthuman' combi rifle on ARO, on his last order. He was counting, without a doubt, on me using a Command Token to reover the Marut on my turn, or kill my remaining troops with ARO reactions. I refused to repair the Marut (it was my 2nd turn) since It would just be an exercise in agony (4 troops plus the Marut and a second proxy body, with a single wound left), changed all my command tokens for regular orders, and managed to do something before finishing the game.
    In other words, my opponent was unlucky on the last moment.
     
    #56 xagroth, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  17. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    In other words, "this only works when the opponent is either dumb or completely new to the game".
     
    xagroth likes this.
  18. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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  19. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Please do tell me it's just a meme and he hadn't say so ?
     
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  20. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    It's easy to lost count of how much you've killed when you are in the middle of a killing spree, ending up with your opponent retreating
     
    xagroth likes this.
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