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Responsibilities for right hidden info ?

Discussion in 'ITS' started by karolis, Mar 13, 2018.

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  1. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    I think it is. To me, it is pretty much the most literal application of "Trust, but verify". I will concede though that calling the person out by name isn't great, as it seems the consensus was that it isn't intentional.
     
  2. sparco_sj

    sparco_sj EIC 2019!
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    [QUOTE = "Leigabar, publicación: 44597, miembro: 98"] Gracias a esta situación, sé qué agregar en las reglas del torneo:

    Ambos jugadores son responsables de verificar sus puntuaciones antes de devolver su hoja de datos. Después de que ambos sean aceptados y los puntajes subidos no se manejarán más disputas.

    BR
    L. [/ QUOTE]

    We have already talked with other satellite organizers to include this rule. And I think it's positive that it gets in all the tournaments.
     
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  3. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    So is the interpretation of this rule that by signing, I agree that my opponent correctly calculated his surviving unit's point total? That's fine if it is, but if so you should state explicitly since it would effectively require your opponent to "audit" against your official list.
     
  4. Cervantes3773

    Cervantes3773 Rogue AI
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    I don't particularly like how we're suggesting that "both players are responsible[...]" be added to the rules when it's clear one player was wrong. It's passing the buck. The judge should have asked the player in retreat to show his math.

    If someone asks you a question, answer truthfully. If they ask you to verify, provide proof.

    If it's about hidden deployment or parachutists sections, show your notes/picture.
    If it's about which holoecho is real, show your notes.
    If it's about whether you're in retreat or not, show your math.

    As a "lesson learned", yeah, ask your opponent to prove it... but as a general rule of good play - provide the proof without being prompted.



    Can I ask why you didn't show your math to prove you were in retreat?

    EDIT: My bad... Missed the missing "a"... Guess that makes me an "a-hole". ;)
     
  5. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't him, their usernames are just very similar.
     
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  6. Cervantes3773

    Cervantes3773 Rogue AI
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    Ah, damn - thanks for catching that. Post updated.

    Rhetorical question stands.
     
  7. Cervantes3773

    Cervantes3773 Rogue AI
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    I understand where you're coming from. In OP's telling of what happened, he mentions calling a judge over and the judge verifying that the other player was in retreat. Clearly the judge messed up somehow. For something like retreat, anything less than going trooper by trooper down the army list and pulling out a calculator is insufficient.

    We can't change the past. But, as I tell my new players "be assertive and learn to actively ask for the information you need to make decisions."
     
  8. karolis

    karolis Member
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    Okay I want to clear things out.

    Im not saying that someone is cheeting or something.
    I'am not saying that some one have judged badly at moment of tournamet.
    I'm not saying that I'm nicest oponent in tournament games.
    I'm not saying that I don't do mistakes.

    I just raising question how these situations have to be resolved (next time It can be me or other person who makes big mistake which dramatically changes outcome of the battle and the tournament). We have to define how protest procedures has to be made (in all competetive activities with international ratings such systems exsits).

    To say that after the game in tournament enviroment (then the lack of time is really an issue) it's possible to double check every oponents unit and everything else - in such complex game - is not realistic.

    I believe it's worth to look at the other similar world class competetive sports or activities systems and look how they solved these problems (same as ELO ratings is based on chess wordlwide rating system ).

    Becouse more infinity community grows more competetive enviroment occurs , more problems with unclear rules.

    And yes , I still don't understand why it's so hard in this case to say: It was mistake - both players agrea let's change the results.
     
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  9. Atsiuski

    Atsiuski Member

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    Sibelus, could you please copy and paste this statement under your name, since you were the head judge, therefore the statement "both players mistake" must have come from you:

    I hereby state that Leibarg (the no. 1 player in the ranking system) has UNINTENTIONALLY forgot 25% of his army (80 points out of 330) and has declared retreat.
    I state that he UNINTENTIONALLY forgot it when asked for the second time.
    I state that he UNINTENTIONALLY forgot that even when asked in the Spanish language.


    Cause I am coming to your tournaments and making unintentional mistakes YOUR problem :)
    I will field more models!
    I will lie on the stats.
    Because if I trick someone, I win. And if you catch me, well, nothing happens.

    This is a precedent with a very high ranking player. The whole ITS system is worth a shit if Organisers accept outcomes like that.

    I hope I get an answer from both Sibelus and Corvus Belli.
     
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  10. McGufalo

    McGufalo Member

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    There was a guy who lost his f#### tour de france for cheating. But in Infinity 48 hours its too late... that is disgusting, I cant forget 80 points in HD troops, that its plain cheating.
     
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  11. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Well, having to deal sometime with TO job, and sometimes angry participants, here is my way to handle this (not saying it's the best ... )

    - A TO is called to provide a rule answer and make a mistake you realize too late ? Apologize. But no change of result. It's too late.
    First, you can not replay the game. Second it's the way things are handled even in professional sports where stakes are much higher (look at soccer for example. Maradona or Henry's hand goal ?) Third, what else can you do ? And last, it's a game ...

    - In you case it's not a rule mistake, but something that went wrong during the game. Happens sometimes. (Most of the time i have people complaining about forgotten ARO). I would apply the same logic.

    - English as official language for international compétition ? Why ? Fencing is french and official statements are said in French. Judo is Japanese and so on ... If any official language it should be Spanish.
    Yes it is a stupid answer from me ... Most people are going to speak English. But I think it's having unreasonable expectations to go to an infinity tournament in Spain and expect the TO to speak fluent English. Or should CB require a TOEIC test ?


    If a lesson is to be learned, it is that when victory point matter (like annihilation or for retreat) I will definitely double check everything with my opponent. And don't be afraid to be assertive (not agressive) as you may regret it later ..

    PS : if this kind of incident keep happening I'm worried that the competitive atmosphere is going to be less and less relaxed and maybe CB will stop promoting this kind of event. I believe it's in everybody interest to accept the fact that mistakes will be made. To players to be more assertive. And maybe to TO to watch table top games closer ...
     
    #31 Marduck, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
    xagroth, sparco_sj, SirNando and 2 others like this.
  12. vsolitario

    vsolitario Member

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    I can forget my keys...my wallet...but 80 points in HD, who are in the army list, printed on the table...that's cheating.

    This game it's about trust, but here I don't
    see any "UNINTENTIONALLY MISTAKE".

    The problem it's not the retreat rule, it's the people exploit of this rule exploiting other rules, like HD and private information.

    How the organization can put a rule so absurd making both players responsible for the results if one part hide information?
     
  13. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Some of you are being needlessly aggressive here. What the player should have done was asked to see the opponents list if there was a question. As has already been stated, the actual tournament officials were not involved until after the results had been agreed upon and submitted by both players.
     
  14. Atsiuski

    Atsiuski Member

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    As a judge, you state here that if player A lies, and player B is not double-checking, this is player's B problem (he will regret not double-cheking).

    Nice. Bravo.
     
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  15. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Well how do you tell the difference from someone willingly lying to someone forgetting something ?

    As leirbag acknowledge the issue and apologized I would give home benefit of doubt.

    And what would you do ? Change the results after they have been publicly announced ? Days latter ? Based on assumption of what would have happen ? Call it a tie ?

    Why not. Both way carry inconvenient.

    But whatever the TO decision, I would tend to say "the referee is always right". My point was to say that even professional sports work that way because there is no other way really.
     
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  16. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Lets all not forget the underlying problem, that Retreat! is a broken, unintuitive mechanic that rewards getting killed. Three rounds should always be played if there is time, and an even number of turns if there is not.

    The Retreat! rule in ITS is garbage and it needs to go today.
     
  17. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Nope. It rewards prioritizing the mission, rather than mere killing of the enemy. And beyond that, considering that it’s written specifically into the missions, and we’re on ITS9, with the very odd interactions appearing to only occur occasionally, it’s highly doubtful that it will be entirely cut out. CB has already removed it from the missions they want to remove it from with the No Quarter! rule.
     
  18. korva

    korva Member

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    This ruling sets a bad precedent, basically you can get away with cheating so long as you're able to convince people that it was an honest mistake. If you cheat or if you make a mistake, you lose, full stop. No matter how difficult it is to change the standings.

    Also, I would agree that Retreat is a garbage rule.

    Certain games reward suicide on your part. There is no way that a wargame should reward suicidal play. Killing people that can stop me from pushing buttons is playing to the mission.
     
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  19. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    However, if your objective is to push the button, without necessarily killing the enemy, then there is a rule to encourage you to focus on that. And, considering that there are exceptions made, that’s how CB wants it, coupled with the different types of tourney.
     
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  20. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    I hate to say it but after a few games on a long day forgetting hidden deployment troops can be an accident and the benefit of the doubt should be extended.
    I have done some dumb crap in tournaments myself. However it is your responsibility when you do dumb shit to try and make it right.
    The OP sad he talked to a judge but that turned out to just be another player right? That sucks for the TO to try and make right. I have watched much bigger games fumble with how to handle this situation.
    It's what was submitted to them so it is what they had to go on.
    However the person who did make the mistake should face some negative consequence for his mistake. I think the coal raking he has gotten here is probably fine.
    It's not a good solution I know as I have had this happen to me when a TO made a bad rules call in a game of magic that I knew was wrong but unless ranking could be edited to more closely resemble a fair outcome then this is the option I would have gone with.

    It can be both...
    It can be a garbage rule.
    It can be a rule CB wants in the game because they don't think it is a garbage rule.
    It can be both...
     
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