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Replacing Dodge and Reset with Evade?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Ginrei, Jul 23, 2018.

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  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone seriously think we avoid CC attacks in the same way we avoid futuristic gunfire? I'd rather not get hung up on the notion that Dodge and Reset need to be separate skill declarations because of the physical actions itself. It's an extremely poor thing to structure a game rules entirely around.

    'Evade' performs the relevant physical action thematically. If these catch 22s are rare, why not just combine Dodge and Reset into one rule? But if you're defending it, I must assume you think these rare cases are worth keeping.
    Yes, the catch 22 is a situation where it doesn't matter if you Dodge or Reset. You still take a normal roll.

    I'm not sure what deployable weapons have to do with this.
     
  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    I think you're misunderstanding people's responses - Reset isn't a physical action. Which is why it isn't making sense to other posters to lump it in with an actual physical action.
     
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  3. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
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    Yes, the catch 22 are rare and they are worth rewarding.

    Just as shooting someone in the back is worth rewarding (no ARO) However, you can argue that getting shot in the back doesn't happen very often and isn't that "skillful" so why not give everyone 360* LoS too.

    deployable weapons (e/maulers or mines, and repeaters) can be used to engineer the catch 22 situation.
     
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  4. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
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    Reset is also used for removing IMM-1. Are you proposing that should be rolled into evade as well?
     
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  5. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Even taking reset out of the equation, against a trooper with a combi rifle and light flamethrower I'm forced to pick between Dodge (avoid the LFT, but take a low odds of winning FTF and forego any chance of hurting my opponent) and BS Attack (get auto hit by fire, but high chance of hitting the attacker).

    Or with a long range ARO, do I shoot my combi at -9, or do I dodge on flat PH allowing my opponent to get to the objective, or move into a better position and/or cover.

    Infinity is all about engineering situations to give your opponent hard decisions.
     
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  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm not misunderstanding anything, You refuse to actual stop and look at what they share in common. Which is far more relevant to actual game play that how a trooper achieves this in real life. But i see i need to spell it out even more. It doesn't matter if you push a button on your wrist to Reset. It doesn't matter if you just think Reset. It doesn't matter if you block a sword strike with your knife. It doesn't matter if you roll to the side avoiding bullets. It doesn't matter. All of these different actions have the exact same end result. The result is you avoid the attack.
    why?
    Having no ARO is a different game situation than a catch 22 so not relevant. If deployable weapons cause the same catch 22s we are already talking about, they are no more relevant than the previous examples.
    Sure, it accomplishes the same thing.
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Nah, I actually stopped and read what you said, then I disagreed with your opinion.

    I think what you propose makes the game less interesting, and makes less sense thematically.
     
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  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That's a good point. But look at each situation you've listed. They all give the reactive player a FTF roll. Choosing to Dodge or Rest does not give you that FTF in the situation we've discussed.
     
  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    The whole point is (if Player A is skillful enough to set up the right scenario) force Player B into picking one or the other type of Attack to try and get away from. And, as mentioned, since Dodge tries to get away from one particular set of attacks and Reset another, combining them makes little sense and moves away from the intent of the game designers. Forcing that hard decision is the point.
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Then it's a good thing i didn't say that to you.
     
  11. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
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    Because some units have different PHs and WIPs... and if you are proposing merging the two skills - that use different stats - then there's going to be a conflict here.
     
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  12. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
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    How, in the catch 22 whatever choice you make is the wrong one and leaves you with no (face2face) ARO

    Shooting outside of 8" and out of LoS gives no ARO.

    There's nothing wrong with playing well enough to deny Aros
     
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  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That may be the whole point you want to discuss but that's not relevant to the point of this topic.

    I don't need more instructions on how I can use the current rules skillfully. Or even why it's skillful play. Any game we play can be done skillfully to a point.

    This is about what suits Infinity goals best. How to play the game skillfully isn't relevant.
    Because a situation where you're not even allowed to have a FTF is different than a situation when you're allowed to choose between two different FTF rolls and neither can actually result in a FTF.

    I could at least see the argument that Dodge and Reset is a lose lose and that choice is a lesser of two evils. But anyone making this argument has to concede a Parry skill would be the same thing.
     
  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    The goal that suits Infinity the best is the one that the design team intentionally brought into the game with the 3rd Edition, that of having Dodge against a certain set of Attacks, and Reset against a different set of Attacks. They set a goal to specifically introduce this interaction, to force that choice if Player A has been skillful enough to set it up, through the design of the different types of weapons, the skills to use them, the attributes used with those skills, and the skills used to attempt to avoid those attacks. That's also why Surprise Shot and Surprise Attack were introduced, to create more options for FtF rolls, etc.
     
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  15. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Do you propose models always "evade" on their PHs? is a new stat created to govern how well the model can get away from all types of damage/attacks?
     
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  16. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Well, I never actually said I can't be ok with Dodge and Parry. I think it would be a good addition to force your opponent to choose to retaliate between a possible CC or BS attack. But I can also follow the argument that evasion of a CC or BS attack are both physical interactions against the PH attribute and therefore summed up as "dodge", vs the interaction with the WIP attribute which is "reset".

    I personally like the "traps" you can force your enemy into, like placing a cybermine (which forces reset) and then shooting (which forces dodge), so your enemy has to choose which one is worse.

    I like your approach to challenge the current rules with the intent to make them better and less exaggerated, but I don't follow your proposed changes this time.
     
  17. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    But isn't Infinity designed around the idea of a simultaneous order? Catch 22s like this defeat that purpose. What simultaneous about waiting for you to pick scissors then I get to smash it with my rock?

    Adding more modifiers doesn't interfere with this.
     
  18. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    This has already been covered. You declare Evade but follow all the rules for dodge or reset. So you use dodge if you're Evading a BS Attack. WIP for a Reset.
     
  19. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    You don't see how this is far more confusing and convoluted than anything proposed?
     
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  20. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Seems like it would be pretty simple to me. Though there is a 3rd, 'special' option that would allow you to use BS...
     
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