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Repeaters Vs Stealth

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by paraelix, Apr 17, 2018.

  1. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Huh that does seem clear....well sod
     
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  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    So just to confirm this is the way it's played:

    I have a core linked Alg Hacker, my opponent Moves a Tikbalang into ZOC of a Repeater, my Hacker declares that he's delaying his ARO due SSL1, the Tikbalang declares Reset, I point out that it's an Invalid declaration and he Moves again instead (I'm nice), my Alg Hacker declares Overlord on a Normal roll?
     
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  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    a) the way it has been done until now

    b) Defensive hackers (or white, can't remember atm) getting SS2 against hacking

    c) some hackers actually having SS as part of their profile (current Securitate profile, and I think Govads, not sure)

    d) Making linked hackers a very secure option for defensive fireteams that can't draw LoF to the enemy hacker in their Hacking Area

    e)
    This little reason here XD
     
  4. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Just to be clear as well, I think if the Sixth Sense skilled Hacker has any ARO that he can't delay (for example if he also has LOF) then he has to declare his ARO straight away and can't delay it, because of the general rules for AROs:

    "The Reactive Player must declare AROs for all eligible troopers immediately after the Active Player declares his Entire Order or the first Short Skill of his Order (see: Order Expenditure Sequence). Troopers that fail to do so lose their ARO against that Order."

    So I think a Hacker delaying a Hacking ARO through a Repeater with Sixth Sense could only do this if Hacking was the only ARO available.
     
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't really change these. There's very few HD+ that are core linkable, and so what they actually now get to use Breakwater? That's not that big a deal: most DHDs have either gone or have SSL1 and basically no access to Repeaters. Unlinked SS hackers already were useful in vanilla but mainly because they were move survivable vs KHDs and stopped Stealth, so again no real change here. Linked hackers are no more secure than they were previously: you're still going to get jobbed by a KHD that Redrums you through the repeater, the order of declaration doesn't change that.

    The only change that really matters is the ability to abuse the fact Reset is broken to get Normal rolls.

    This is the opposite of how it works with Markers co-ordinated with Troopers. In that situation you can still delay but your options are restricted by that decision (your options are limited to responses vs the Marker you delayed against).

    The analogue would be that you can delay but you can no only declare Hacking AROs.
     
  6. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Yeah I'm not sure this actually works if you play it that way
     
  7. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    *shrug* doesn't make much practical difference.
     
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  8. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Tik needs to declare no further short skills - you lose your ARO.
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Unless you declared an Entire Order skill, it doesn't appear like you can not declare the second Short Skill of the Order.
     
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  10. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Fair. I've floated this thread with my gaming groul and they're declaring it ambiguous and saying they wouldn't accept the sixth sense via repeater without a CB faq ruling.
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    This is a very good point.
     
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  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Only the Legate can link as HD+, now that I think about it. But point is... well... the situation can be exploited or explode in your face.
    Securitate's profile (only SS2 hacker) precede KHDs, and I think that Govads had the hacker profile (not the KHD) before aswell...
    DHD can access repeaters thanks to the Soldiers of Fortune extra (Druze hacker profiles).

    The biggest change would be, I think, how it turns Repeater zones of control into "don't get there if you can be hacked"... Specially for TAGs, as ilustrated: The TAG makes a short movement inside the Repeater's zone, and suddenly I only declare "delay" with my SS2 hacker, while my other hackers declare "no ARO". And since, as mentioned, there is no way to "not declare a 2nd order" short of having declared a long order... (because you do an Idle, which generates ARO) I get free, uncontested Overlord/Total Control :S (and I get 2 chances per SS2 hacker: when you enter and when you exit).

    CA says "3 Unidron link with Legate H+ and Nexus Hacker", then Kerr Nau or Bit launch repeaters.
    Nomads say "oooh, Securitate Hacker!!!!" and gets an even better deal by paying more or less what an Interventor costs (depending on H+/KHD)
     
  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    if @ijw stands by it your group may have to, the aus wider meta has a standing convention of using his word as an indication of how the rules are supposed to play when unclear. while this may not affect your day to day gaming, tournies in NSW and Melbourne are likely to play it how he suggests.

    Believe me Im not a fan of this ruling but if it stays.....i'll have to deal
     
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  14. Spleen

    Spleen Well-Known Member

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    The inverse problem is also true, if the ZOC of the repeater is just the ZOC of the hacker.

    I co-ordinate 2 stealth KHDs and a non-stealth non-hackable model in range of your repeater, all your hackers are forced to declare aro's against my non stealth model because we are treating the repeaters ZOC as theirs without reservations, I get unopposed KHD hacks on anyone in your network I want.
     
  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    No, because Stealth just stops the ARO being generated not which active model is targeted.

    Also, it's not 'without reservations' it's 'for Hacking only'. So if the model is non-hackable (and there is no valid program) then no ARO is triggered.
     
    #35 inane.imp, Apr 18, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
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  16. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    So, here's my problem, I don't see how you can use 6th Sense to making a delayed Hacking ARO if the active model doesn't trigger the requirements for 6th Sense: "In order to use Sixth Sense L2, the user must be the target of an Attack."

    For example:

    TAG spends an order and activates.
    First Skill: Move (into ZOC of Repeater)
    ARO Declaration: Hacker declares the use of 6th Sense to delay ARO.
    Second Skill: Move
    Delayed ARO: Forfeited, as user was not the target of an attack.

    Now, if the Second Skill was, indeed, BS: Attack targeting the Hacker then I would have no problem with the Hacker declaring their ARO as either a Hacking Program, Dodge or BS: Attack.

    I don't see how Stealth interacts with this situation, or how an Alguacile in a link (which grants him 6th Sense level 2) is allowed to Overlord a TAG as a delayed ARO.

    I feel like it's similar to the Discover-Delay-Camo ARO interactions, where a model is allowed to delay their ARO against a Camo marker but if the Camo marker just moves as their second skill, the delayed ARO is lost. If the TAG just moves or otherwise does not attack the 6th Sense model, then the delayed ARO is forfeit.
     
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  17. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Just a bit of a thought bubble:

    The Order Expenditure Sequence page says the following: "If the Player declares a Skill and, when he applies its Effects, he realizes the Requirements are not met, then the Skill is considered null." A strict literal reading of this sentence can take it to mean that the skill is considered null only if the Requirements are not met at the time the player applies its Effects.

    'Effects' is the 8th step in the order expenditure sequence, and occurs after all declarations, and resolution.

    Therefore, can the Tikbalang player in the above example do the following:

    1. Tikbalang moves
    2. Enemy hacker declares sixth sense to hold ARO
    3. Tikbalang declares Reset despite requirements not being met
    4. Enemy hacker declares hack
    5. Tikbalang and hacker resolve hack and reset
    6. Effects are applied. Because at this stage of the order expenditure sequence the requirements of Reset are met, it is not considered null.

    For reference this would also fix the broken Breakwater interaction. Frankly, it's a hack, and we shouldn't need it but the interaction otherwise is a mess.

    Thoughts?
     
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  18. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Its not level 2 man, its level 1


    • In the Reactive Turn, Sixth Sense L1 allows its user to delay his ARO declaration until after the declaration of the second Short Skill of the enemy inside his Zone of Control.
    That Dot point does not require the user to be the target of the attack, just for the opponent to activate in ZOC. For further explanation see hte examples.

    Example of Sixth Sense L1 vs a rear attack
    An Alguacil, in his Active Turn, declares the first Short Skill of his Order: Moving towards a Maakrep Tracker with her back turned, keeping outside her LoF. The Alguacil is now inside the Tracker's Zone of Control so she uses her Sixth Sense L1 Special Skill to delay her ARO, waiting for the Alguacil to make his move.
     
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  19. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    The rest of that example then indicates that if the Alguacil declares Move as the second short skill, the Maakrep is allowed to Dodge-Change Facing, which is exactly what any other model would do (albeit, without delaying), so I'm not convinced that your full suite of ARO options remains open to you.

    The first 'effect' of SS level 1 is that you may respond with a Face-to-Face roll against attacks (and only attacks), so does delaying your Overlord hacking attack (which would be Face to Face against a Reset) only work if your opponent's second skill would trigger a Face to Face roll?

    Maybe CB needs to tweak the way they organise their rules. If you have a big old box that says: 'Requirements' followed by another section called 'Effects', then you're indicating a causal relationship between the two. If delaying an ARO is completely independent of the Requirements, it needs to be positively identified as such.
     
  20. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    I like it.

    It's bad enough that a TAG has to declare Reset as one of its skills each time it activates in a Hacking zone, allowing 6th Sense to make that Reset an illegal declaration based on order of declaration/operations feels wrong. The TAG is still forked (Bad decision point: Move-Move, leaving themselves open to an unopposed Hack; or Move-Reset, losing half their order to making sure they can oppose the hack), so the delayed ARO remains a bonus to the 6th Sense model without completely munting the Active player based on RAW interpretations of a translated ruleset.
     
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