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Remove White Noise Zones From the Game

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by quaade, May 4, 2021.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like a very round about way of saying that he wants eclipse in some factions that don't have eclipse.
     
  2. quaade

    quaade Active Member
    Warcor

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    Ah, I had misread Eclipse Grenades to only work against MSV, missed the smoke part. I'm okay with those then as it's reciprocal. I still have an issue with the specific White Noise hacker program since it creates a non-reciprocal Zero Visibility Zone. IMOP that should still be replaced with an NFB Albedo effect since it can be abused.
     
  3. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    tThis perfectly reflects your knowledge of the game, you are so eager to change to cater to your personal skill level.

    Wrong again. Kamau Sniper MSV2, Mimetism. Indigo Brother Constantinos. Svalarheima Nises. Not to look too broadly. All have MSV and Mimetism and can benefit from both through Smoke. As a side note: It is hilarious how that you find MSV units the "only thing that has a reasonable chance of taking" Mimetism model down.

    Maybe you are wrong on so many levels that other users just do not provide explanations by intent. I can only speak for myself, but your tone and attitude since first post does not warm me to a thought of explaining basic rules to you.
     
    Tristan228, Errhile, xagroth and 7 others like this.
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I tried to help you on the first page, offered advice, and asked questions so people could help further and you ignored it. I can only assume you're not posting in good faith and choosing to be belligerent for the sake of belligerence.

    In addition, your thread title and first post read in a petulant tone. Maybe if you'd come in with "Hi everyone, I'm having trouble with people stacking white noise and Mimetism, can I check my understanding of the rules and any advice?" people would have been far more inclined to reply constructively.
     
    #44 colbrook, May 8, 2021
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    See? Dunning-Kruger.
     
  6. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget about Senor Massacre as well.
     
  7. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    Under the rules for White Noise Zones, the rules specifically identify White Noise Zones as being a Zero Visibility Zone to MSV models, it clearly is intended to work this way. There is no wiggle room here. You are just wrong.
    https://infinitythewiki.com/Visibility_Conditions#White_Noise_Zone
     
  8. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

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    At this point I have to ask if you @quaade , are aware of the sixth sense skill, which can be gained by 4 member fireteam, that would allow to your MSV trooper to shoot back to the enemy without the -6 for zero visibility zone created by the WN.

    Another posibility is to also put in ARO dutty a trooper without MSV. Better to deal with mimetism than being blind.

    Last but not least, Dodge, it is a PH roll .
     
    #48 Mogra, May 8, 2021
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  9. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    The fact that you are didn't even know how one of the items you proposed to have changed actually works is cause for quite severe concern.

    Also, Smoke creates a non-reciprocal Zero Visibility Zone. Why is Smoke's ZVZ acceptable while White Noise's is not, given that White Noise works on far fewer models? You can even create a similar "abuse" as the one you're complaining about by taking a model with Albedo and walking it into a Smoke zone, and that trick can even work in ARO!

    White Noise is an extremely niche hacking program. Even combining it with a Mim (-6) model still lets you simply dodge ARO, or shoot back at -6 (-9 in the specific case of an MSV1 model), and it only works in Active Turn anyways. Do you often leave multiple MSV models overlooking the same location on the board against an opponent with a Hacking Device Plus?

    This whole suggestion speaks to a severe lack of experience playing the game, and the fact that it comes from a WarCor is extremely disconcerting.
     
    #49 Delta57Dash, May 8, 2021
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  10. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I'd like to thank quaade for his tireless efforts to promote discussion both here and over in the tohaa subforum. His thread topics, and subsequent engagement in those threads, has generated many worthwhile, interesting and witty responses from other posters.
     
  11. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    White noise lasts until the end of the current players turn and has no aro capability. It literally cannot be used to prevent an active turn msv model. while it is fair that it does weaken an aro msv model (that isn't in a 4+ man link or has sixth sense), it doesn't work at all as a defensive tool.

    The game has a bs 18(15 with marksman ship) total reaction msv2 msr sniper without buffs just exists. removing white noise as an option to deal with atalanta and some vanilla lists may not be able to deal with her.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    *mumbles under breath* shame White Noise is only available to factions that have other effective means of dealing with such a sniper
     
  13. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Not to dogpile, but this is one of those things that always goes right up my nose, so. Look. Any argument based on privileging logic over emotion, or asserting that emotional motivation is somehow more fallible than logic, is based on a completely wrong model of how people function. Your logical brain mostly just serves up justifications for your emotional brain to use to defend your emotional preferences and beliefs, unless you’re doing something you have exactly zero emotional investment in.

    So newsflash: All your arguments are also motivated by your emotions, including this grievously ironic misuse of Dunning-Kruger, no matter how certain you are that you’re coming from a purely logical starting position. Without an emotional motivation you wouldn’t bother posting here in the first place, yet here we are.

    Please be so kind as to leave the cognitive psych to the professionals and limit your rules arguments to things in the Infinity rules, we’ll all be better off that way.
     
  14. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    Including the irony of posting AGAINST white noise zones while creating more.
     
  15. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    A model with MSV can fire back at a model inside a White Noise.

    In the same way a model without MSV can fire back at a model inside a smoke.

    They will get a -6 penalty (unless they have sixth sense), which while being a upside still come at the cost of having a trooper with the appropriate program, correct positioning and at least an order. (This opportunity cost is something that makes me skip on that skill for most of my lists)
     
  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Negative Feedback affects the troop that uses the skill, program, piece of equipment... Not the one "receiving" it. So both White Noise, and a supposed Albedo programs apply Negative Feedback to the hacker using the program, NOT the troops inside/receiving the effect. The same way a troop that gets Doctor'ed and gets up, does NOT generate an ARO from enemy troops (the order was spent by the doctor/paramedic, not the troop that was healed).

    So even if White Noise was changed to Albedo instead of a zone, I could drop it on top of my Avatar and use it to dance in front of your MSV troops, or shoot at it imposing a -6 (unless you have 6th sense, in which case I will shoot at other of your ARO pieces I can see, to thin the herd while ignoring your MSV unit until I find it convenient to engage). I could not, however, do so with the TO troops that were in marker/Hidden Deployment state, thus nerfing those kind of troops and keeping those with simple Mimetism values at the same level.

    Finally, Tohaa and then Aleph have the biggest access to Eclipse smoke (in that order), but others that have H+ devices would find harder to move troops without FtF the MSVs simply because of two reasons: one, each hacker can mantain one White Noise (or albedo) program at any given time (and in the case of, for example, the Reverend Custodier or the Anatematic, both would lose Mimetism), and second, they protect a single unit instead of all in the zone, meaning a fireteam would be unable to move between total cover areas unless all units in it were in range for a acutious movement. CA and Nomads suffer this, with only a Morat paratrooper (Rasyat) and a Bakunin unit (Chimera) having Eclipse Smoke, vs the sheer amount of hackers they have able to deploy white noise.

    So yeah, changing White Noise for Albedo would mean nothing to your problems, and give a lot of grief to a lot of players, by removing a toolbox.
     
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