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Religious to grant Vet L1?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by RogueJello, Jan 2, 2019.

  1. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    It's more of a feel issue than a costing issue, I can assure you all line troops follow the formula. They really feel like they should be 2 points over a Fusilier for the WIP bump and religious.

    As far as I can tell, the cost of religious can't change since it's currently only a point
     
  2. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    They also have +2 CC, not sure what that costs. I'm also not sure I accept that the WIP bump is 2 points, since Regulars are also 10 points for a Combi Rifle profile.
     
  3. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    So you have no standard for evidence, nor anything to contribute to the conversation other than complaints? Maybe this isn't the thread for you.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, +2 CC is pretty much +2 points. Look at Celestial Guard instead of the criminally cheap Fusiliers as a starting point.
    +1 BS, +Religious, +1 CC
    =
    +1 WIP, +3 BTS

    Or Morat Vanguard
    +1 BS, +1 CC, -1 point
    =
    +2 PH, +veteran

    And yes, Religious is free of cost or near enough free that I haven't found a unit that pays for it.
     
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  5. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    First off Securitate are WIP 14, so compared with OS trade Veteran L1 and +1 WIP for Religious and +2 CC.
    Second, CG pay 1 point for +3 BTS and +1 CC over a Ghulam (essentially their WIP 14 is discounted or their +1 CC is free).

    The largest bump to CC that 1 point pays for, across every profile I've analysed, is +3, so it's pretty clear that a great many bonuses are not whole numbers and CC is used to "round up" to an integer figure.

    Religious looks to have a stat threshold below which is costs ~1 point, above which it provides a discount (good luck finding it, it's probably multiple stats combined).
     
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  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The WIP bump is only a point, Regulars trade an ARM for a WIP compared to Fusiliers.

    My point is that CC below 18 or so should just be free. Its rarely useful, and CC specialists will pretty much ignore anything below that.
     
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  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I like it! Would make the Father-Knights a bit more desirable.



    Agreed.
     
  8. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, I'd further assert that nobody who's a non CC expert with a guaranteed hit is likely to do much CC, which is where I would expect a comparison of CC stats to occur.
     
  9. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Coming back to my own point, CC that is edged to lose against an electric pulse (somewhere around CC18 or so) should be cheaper than an electric pulse.
     
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  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm more weirded out as to why Hollow Men have Religious, since it does absolutely nothing on their profile and is pure rules bloat.
     
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  11. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Not that I disagree with anything in that post but wasn’t there s recent debarcle about the Religious on the Tikbalang? Where it even looked like it paid an absurd amount for it too.
     
  12. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I think it's more to simulate that the guys behind the controls don't really give a shit about the physical bodies – or the outcome of the battle, they just want to have fun and shoot shit
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They already have Courage via Remote Presence, so I think that's already covered.
     
  14. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I disagree – I think it's more thematic for them to disregard self preservation despite what the commander is telling them to do. Courage, to me, represents a level headedness and an understanding of your role and situation in a particular combat scenario. This is something Hollow men don't have, have no concept of, and frankly don't care.
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think it's particularly un-thematic to have a trait called "religious" on the Hollow Men. Putting it on, say, the Shaolin or Knights who already have Valor from Martial Arts is a good nod to fluff.
     
  16. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I agree – "Religious" isn't the best term for it. I think mechanically the rule is fitting for them though. Similar to the Shaolin monks, many will argue that Shaolin monks are not religious and therefore should not have "Religious" on the troop profile, but I think it's fitting mechanically for the miniature on the tabletop to want to die despite what their commander is telling them.
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's actually a *really* good point!


    Represents their don't-give-a-crap attitude about cover.


    Yes, the rule name doesn't really fit. The rule effects, however, do, IMO, so I'd rather see Religious on them than some other rule with exactly the same effect with a different name.
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Section9 They already have Courage, though, so the effects of the rule are absolutely zero. It's just bloat.

    @MikeTheScrivener Who's saying the Shaolin monks aren't religious? When did Buddhism stop being a religion?
     
  19. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Screen Shot 2019-01-04 at 4.05.25 PM.JPG

    I only know what the internet tells me!
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's more difficult to gauge because they are TAGs. The stronger models pay more for stuff, so HI pay I think it is 5 points more for camouflage and infiltration than MI or LI and Raicho pays something like 1 or 2 points more for the Morat rule than a Vanguard does. It's very possible that the Religious Tik pays an extra premium on AP HMG vs HMG and the DA CCW than we're used to calculating.

    That and Religious on a Courage model only has two effects; 1) they generate regular orders during Retreat and 2) during Retreat they can't leave the table. Otherwise they overlap and if they want to fail the Guts Roll they can just go "I'll use Courage to choose the outcome" in order to disregard the whole drawback stuff of Religious, so it's possible that CB for once actually accounted for that and assigned a cost to Religious.