https://infinitythewiki.com/Open_and_Private_Information I'd say here (between Lt roll and the first tactical turn of any player, since the courtesy list is not explicitely stated to be exchanged anywhere. This would mean that the player deploying firs would do so, effectively, blind, while the player going second will also know the Reinforcements he may endure in the second strike. Mind you, I don't have acess to the N4V2.1 rulebook atm.
Yeah, it says "while you deploy your models" which could mean anything from "as soon as you start deploying your first model" to "as you deploy your last reserve." We always took it to mean the latter, because that's consistent with the idea that a trooper's Open Info isn't available to the opponent until that trooper is on the table. But, we now know that Reinforcement troopers' Open Info is available several turns before they're deployed, so I don't know if we got the whole thing wrong. Maybe my opponent has always been entitled, as soon as I start my initial deployment phase, to say "while you're deploying, please give me your courtesy list now." Possibilities: 1. Both players give CLs at start of game. 2. Each player gives their CL at start of their first deployment phase. 3. Each player gives their CL after deploying their reserve. 4. Both players give their CLs after both players have deployed their reserves. (3) and (4) used to be identical, but no longer are now that Reinforcements are on the CL. As you say, (3) would mean first player to deploy does so without knowing their opponent's Reinforcements, but second player gets to know their opponent's Reinforcements while deploying. We always thought the answer was (3)/(4), but (1) would be most consistent with the new rule suggesting that troopers' info is Open before they're deployed. Hence the need for clarification from @Koni .
I'm not happy at all with this decision to make Reinforcements open information at the start of the game. The models are essentially deploying using Combat Jump, there is no way your opponent should be able to know what your reinforcements consist of. If CB persists with Reinforcements being open information from the start of the game then many players are going to pull out army and calculate their opponents army lists that they can kill enough troops to cripple the opponent while also staying under the amount of casualties required to trigger Reinforcements from happening. I really think that this was a poor decision on the Developer's part.
You do not need to see the reinforcements to calculate how much can kill before the reinforcements arrive.
No you don't but having Reinforcements as private information would mean that you could hide a Combat Drop or hidden deployment model, as your opponent would not know how many models you have.
But he could just calculate the points of the visible troops and know that you have something hidden, based on the expected points of your main army. I do not see how knowledge in reinforcements help in that.
I do not see how you would hide an entire combat group, hiding model count is something you cannot do in regular games why should you be able to do it in reinforcements extra?
Ok, let's be clear about some data: Most important: We do NOT know if it will be possible to have one player with Reinforcements Vs one without. We DO know if a Commlink unit is present (that's Open Info). Looking at the game's size, that makes automatic the knowledge of the maximum points in the Reinforcements, and how many points do you need to kill to trigger their arrival. Group existence is OPEN information. In short, the gripe with the Reinforcements's group contents being Public Info is, first, how counterintuitive it is (how can you know what's inside of the pinnace but not that a parachutists is coming!), and second, which is a detail I'm not seeing anyone talking about, how can this knowledge drag the deployments and movements before the Reinforcements' arrival, specially depending on the matchup (full melee and your list is full gunning? Full gunners and you have no melee remainign? You do have melee, but the opponent is hunting your pieces so their reinforcements can gun at ease... Etc...)
I think that is not possible, both players must have reinforcements. I agree that reinforcements should be private info, just to be coherent with stuff like combat jump.
The contents of the combat group would be private information, just like if you had Combat Jump troopers. The oppone t would still know that you had a Reinforcements combat group, they just wouldn't know which profiles you have and how many models in your reinforcements until they land.
The combat group would not be as it is not private information, even then though, having a combat group exclusively made of off the table troopers (hidden deployment and Airborne Deployment) is as inefficient and inflexible as it sounds and offers no tactical advantage. The reinforcements group on the other hand is a flexible and efficient combat force it deploys in a relatively safe, automatic and order efficient way and can act immediately with full order availability. Is the difference between the two enough to justify, for gameplay, to not have also the extra advantage of been a veil of mystery? only sufficient games will provide such data.
Am I missing the point? or your entire point is AD and hidden deployment troops are hidden information (and pay massive order restrictions to do so) so why not reinforcements be the same without paying any order restrictions for it?
I think that will be clear with the ITS document, frankly. The rules you placed there are all under the framework of "lists with Reinforcements". I disagree. I can have a frigging Sphinx in my group 2, because my group 1 already has ten troops, and when I suffer 1 casualty with body removal during turn 1 I can use a command token (or strategos, if I want to save the token and need not a free slot...) to suddenly break my opponent's assumptions that my camo tokens hid really expensive troops and I had 1-2 troops in a second group ready to jump into the table... His entire point is that models not placed in the table are private information, and that the reinforcements are out of the table. Not a hard reasoning to perform, IF you want to discuss in good faith your reasons in favour of the reinforcements groups profiles being public info from the start of the game even if they may enter the table in the third turn. For example, you can say that it follows the rules as written (as I did) because the listed private info regarding troops outside of the table refers to troops having specific skills no reinforcement troop has. Another example would be that dropping up to 5 troops in the midfield with perfect information of the enemy's positions and no ARO would be unacceptably favourable to the player dropping the reinforcements first, but then the second player would drop his with even better perfect info, so either the reinforced player is quite bad, or has abysmal dice rolls. An even third example would involve explaining an intention to avoid having main forces as purely defensive units placed just to block as many possible reinforcements as possible, making the game a quagmire that won't move centered on blocking the other player's moves while causing the least amount of casualties so as not to call their reinforcements until the last moment when all has been decided. Personally, I think making the reinforcements to place the drop pod's ZoC touch one edge of the table would have suffice as compensation for dropping with no ARO available, but I imagine a Steel Rheen!!! was more desirable than the more prosaic and safe land vehicle. Heck, I would have said "no casualties needed, BOTH players may pay 1 Command Token on turn 2 to deploy their Reinforcements prior to the tactical use of command tokens, in the same order they deployed, or for free at turn three following the same order"...
In your example, when your opponent asks you how many combat groups you have you must reply to him two, even though the second combat group contains only the sphynx, moreover as long as the sphinx is in hidden deployment it loses its tactical awareness order, looses its order if it becomes part of a coordinated order and rarely can be discovered by a sensor and be forced on the battlefield. Airborne deployment troops are even more restricted than the hidden deployment troops, as their entry on the battlefield is an automatic uncontested ARO restricting their placement options, but they do avoid been forced on the game table by lucky sensor usage. Reinforcements have none of these limitations and as you said none has a skill that gives them access to hidden information. Now if reinforcements had the limitations the two existing hidden information troops have they would most probably be unplayable. I do understand that the immediate reaction to reinforcements is "it is off table so it must be hidden information" and I have not hidden that this was the first thing I thought too, but this is not the case, I did not extensively discuss about it to give you any in depth information about why it was chosen, I list my assumptions of why it probably is, I do know it is a conscious decision though.
The fact that it's a conscious decision by CB is even more worrisome to me than if they simply didn't think about it. Because, as it stands, Infinity is already suffering from the fact that a lot of private info is often easy to know. That, despite the fact that the hidden info mechanic is one of the things that makes Infinity unique and fun to play and is a selling point for many players. If reinforcements had been hidden info, CB would given players the chance to bring back a crucial element of surprise. Making it open info takes that away. If that is a conscious decision, it suggests that CB doesn't care about aspects of the game that their player base enjoy. Hence the worry.
After playing a couple of games, I think it may be good that Reinforcements are open info. Being the first to drop your Reinforcements is a huge disadvantage. At least knowing what your opponent's Reinforcements will be goes partway to mitigating the disadvantage. Either way, it's the rules, we have our answer. Complaints that it ought to be different belong in the rules-suggestions subforum. The rules question which remains unanswered, and which very much needs and answer, is when courtesy lists are exchanged, i.e. when does the Reinforcements info become Open given that it's not when they deploy.
