No that's real. One functionally gives you a +3 modifier, the other gives the opponent a -3, since Mimetism stacks with the Low-vis zone. Makes them more likely to miss, which means you're more likely to win the FtF.
The advantage of MSV through low vis is that you get all the advantages of an MSV plus Mimetism that applies to dodges. Isolating all the advantages of MSV from the situation then saying Mimetism is almost as good doesn't mean anything.
Well, MSV doesn't help with the low-vis penalty for *your* dodges, so if you yourself are doing the dodging (or potentially smoke dodging), you'd rather have the Mimetism. Even on FtF rolls, it's a matter of giving you +3 vs. giving your opponent -3, functionally. Like if a BS 12 guy is firing in good range bands with low vis and cover he'll be shooting on 9's. If you have MSV your dice go up to 12, if you have Mimetism your opponent's dice go down to 6. These are both good, the advantage is that Mimetism is more generally useful, since it doesn't require a problem to solve; it instead is the problem that the enemy needs to solve, if that makes sense.
I think MSV does help your own dodges but that's not what I'm talking about. Shooting at dodging targets with the MSV gives them the -3 from low vis but no penalty to yourself. If your target has Mimetism having MSV gets a 3 advantage over Mimetism. If the target has MSV having MSV gives a 3 advantage over Mimetism. A lot of long range combat, where low vis zones most often get used, are against targets with Mimetism, MSV, or are dodging. The bottom line is that if MSV was overcosted you wouldn't know, because you are refusing to use the terrain associated with it. Try it out. Otherwise I'm done with the subject, I'm on this forum to talk about enjoying the game. Personally I think MSV2 is fine because on top of the obvious stuff seeing through smoke makes it such a vital Warband counter the points are worth it. I haven't used the other two enough to really form an opinion.
Nah, check the low-vis zone rules. If your target has mimetism you have a 3 point advantage over having mimetism yourself, but then again so does your opponent. So sometimes one or the other is better.
Starting at 13 BS, thru low vis Mimetism vs Mimetism is 7 vs 7 Mimetism vs MSV is 10 vs 13 MSV vs. MSV is 13 vs 13 Without either of the common long range skills on your target, still thru low vis: The stronger the target is (15 BS linked) the better Mimetism is, approach but seemingly never reaching quite as good as MSV. The most extreme case I could imagine gave the MSV only a 1% advantage to wound, while taking about half that more to be wounded back. The lower they are the better MSV gets, reaching up to 10% higher chance to wound. I ran these numbers with Combis. Different bursts might result in different scales. The average is that a massive amount of targets, especially the targets that are common to encounter, are significantly improved by having MSV. Reminder that my only point is that MSV is significantly better at using low vis than replacing it with Mimetism, so my claim that adding low vis zones in your terrain does improve MSV is true. I am not saying this advantage makes MSV1 worth more than Mimetism.
When the other person has neither skill (literally the most common permuation, and also the one you happened to omit in your comment), yes, it is. Mimetism unit shooting at no-skill unit through low-vis: Mimetism suffers -3, other guy suffers -6 MSV1 unit shooting at no-skill unit through low-vis: MSV suffers 0 penalty, other guy suffers -3 The difference is identical, is it not? The only case where MSV1 is better is an MSV1 unit shooting at a Mimetism unit through a low-vis zone, and that favors the MSV1 guy even without the low visibility zone.
@loricus Yup, my point is that when the target has neither mimetism nor MSV both Mimetism and MSV give you an edge, and Mimetism is more broadly useful because it doesn't require a low-vis zone or vision mods on the part of a target to give you that edge.
Mimetism also makes it possible to get a TR HMG (and other BS12 or lower units) to -12 MOD* through a low-vis. I wouldn't even call this an edge case on boards that have low-vis zones. * Cover + mimetism + poor range + low-vis.
This Visor adjusts the CH: Mimetism, CH: Camouflage and Low Visibility Zone MODs suffered by the user from -3 to 0. Nah, he's good.
I've found getting range, low vis, and LoS to the bot to be pretty uncommon unless the low vis is obviously placed on a sniper spot or board wide (both things I wouldn't suggest), but it is a good thing to keep in mind in case it happens to line up. Of course you need to be a faction that has Mimetism snipers or ML and to have taken one, but we're not talking about availability. Against normal targets you still sacrifice a significant to-wound chance if swapped MSV to Mimetism to get rid of their last BS, but without running numbers I would guess that that's no longer true against the TR. edit: probably not worth it against the Q-drone thou. Even free rolls on around 6 feels like risking a big order drain. edit2: nope, that 4 B crit chance isn't worth the difference.
It does require the zones to be placed creatively, such as putting a planter with draping trees on corners of buildings, etc. Theoretically you can achieve this effect in several using Nimbus grenades, regardless of terrain, though you'd have to make sure the gun you use yourself has positive range at 0-8, since Nimbus cares little for your MSV. Nimbus, as far as I can tell, does not exist on models with Mimetism or higher, however. Likewise, this can often be achieved against Combi Rifle armed mooks at mediocre range 16-32", but then the target is also much more likely to benefit from Cover.
Yeah looking around they make it pretty tough to do without resorting to specializing for it. If you use one of the Zhanying links and Lunah by chance you can do it pretty well. And then, of course... Druze Bayram Security ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 2 DRUZE (CH: Mimetism) MULTI Sniper / Viral Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32) DRUZE (X Visor) Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher (E/M and Nimbus) / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27) 2 SWC | 59 Points Open in Infinity Army
Yeah, long range is fairly simple, and often deploying Nimbus is overkill since many snipers can manage these MODs without external help :) I was thinking short range digging out a TR REM or Suppression Fire that's deployed to protect objectives or deployment zones, but not challenge the other side of the board.
I would say that mimetism and msv are differently useful. Mimetism is bad when they just dodge, doesn't help at all. But if they shoot you from behind, it's good. MSV1 is good if there are modifiers to negate, not if there isn't, etc etc.
