Finally accurate words. Smoke / white noise allows you to position your gunfighter in right rangeband easily. PanO struggles with it. They often forced to fight unfavored gunfight with +1 BS.
Well if you can solve the same kinds of problems that PanO does via shooting with your own shooting at basically the same efficiency, then you're a shooting faction on par with PanO. And that's what I'm seeing. At a certain point having increases ability to win gunfights is unnecessary because it's a waste. Most serious tournament armies are going to try to score with things you can't shoot, like mirrorball fields and so on.
That makes your comparison between "Szalamandra vs Dragao" invalid. Here, remote presence, repairing stuff, and consequnces of failed shoot has no meaning in a faction is shooty or not, because it is equivalent as bring a hacker or setting up a combo. PanO just pop out and shoot because that is the only option. When "shooty faction" became a faction with shooting being the only option, not a faction who shoots better?
I would say there is plenty difference because in one case you pay the cost up front (not only orders, but also mental - you have to decide which shooting warrants extra orders for smoke, and when it is superfluous) in the other you react occassionally. Maybe I will reiterate. If by "shooty" you mean capable of killing opposition with shooting then every faction in the game is a shooty faction, and has to be a shooty faction in order to participate in the game. What makes the difference between a shooty and non-shooty faction is not the effect (an enemy is shot) but how you got there. If you need to frequently hack him, smoke him, or outmaneuver him to shoot him effectively than you are more trick/combo faction than a shooty faction. Now you may argue that PanO advantage at straight shooting ("pop out of cover and blast") is not overall good enough to compensate for the lack of (some) tricks. But then it doesn't mean that PanO is not shooty. It means that the game rules or the meta causes shooty faction to be at a disdavantage. Which very well may be the case. Anyway Im so happy that we moved away from ridiculous "Nomads are better than CA" to much more plausible "Nomads are better than PanO". Maybe CB publishing the ITS data did have some effect after all.
Idk why this 'Identity expension(dev view)' frequently happens in one faction. And idk why this 'identity theft(my view)' is very tolerable to certain people. This is bad for game design. People are complaining about faction identity not 'Evil Nomad, Nomad player bad'. But some people misinterpret this and assaulted by it.
Most toxic thread of the last times. Pano boys spewing hate by 7 pages. No one cares when moiras was old weird profiles with incredible pointcost, but only CB made a awesome rework for them, we've got this thread. Nomads all the time was faction were was everything by little, so where is problem?
Well, it's a bit rough when you've got people like PS arguing that Nomads should be able to meet or outperform all factions at all roles.
Don't go there, mate. This isn't true. People are complaining about a profile that feels out of place in a faction. That's a reasonable complaint. Some of the arguments here are quite over the top, but the main root of the argument is a feeling nomads get too much, which is something I'm inclined to agree. That being said, I think the cries for removing it from the game are kinda silly. At this point, I'd prefer if CB started giving out toys for other factions instead. Also, rhe argument about kusanagi is also silly. She has always been a bs14 nwi mimetism -6 unit and she has never outperformed anyone.
OK, I tried to check why we came to this "what is shooty faction". The OP's first claim is "Daemonist unnecessarily breaks the inbuilt limitations of the faction" and someone brought "PanO shoots better than Nomad", based on Kusanagi not beating up Nisse. That's where this who shoots better and what is shooty faction discussion came. For me, a shooty faction is a faction has better odds to win a bs attack against long-range bs aro where both are in cover and good range. For example, active turn F2F against the Volkolak ML with full core bonus or against Nisse sniper haris. It would include mimetism and usually fireteam bonuses, but not surprise attack because those long-range aros usually have 6th sense. So for me, PanO is slightly better in shooting compared to Nomad, but that margin is not significant as in the examples of Kusanagi or Szalamandra. However, we have no access to many things due to that slight superiority in shooting while others got better guns, shooters (looking at you Azra'il), or sweet mixed pure fireteams (Cosmo and Bakunin). No matter how they stepped on PanO shooting superiority, I was OK because Haqq and Ariadna needed those good expensive shooters since N4 change. However, in this thread, even Nomad player was worring about this is too much stepping on other factions' identities, some people were saying "that is OK because Nomad is inferior in shooting compared to PanO/leadership compared to Yu Jing/warbands compared to CA" and so on. And I wanted to show that their inferiority nomad players think is actually so little based on what I know. I'm not very competitive player and I know a few things outside PanO, so I cannot tell how much other aspects are good or bad except shooting. [Edit] I want to add that I'm not against Kusanagi having proper link option or Bakinin gets all those fancy new Observence units. What I want to emphasize is the arguments like "Some faction is better at something than us" does not justify anything.
To be fair, the arguments of the OP are basically lost at this point because the loudest voices in the room have gone on to complain about Nomads in general. The best post being that the intruder is the best shooter in Nomads, and this proves Nomads shooting is superior to Pan-O's. Why this is funny is that it is listed as a mediocre unit no-one will take over the Deamonist and other better units. To the OPs arguments: The Deamonist is as bad as most line troops at shooting, has an S4 base, is an HI that is vulnerable to hacking, is not cheap, and does nothing for helping your board state except to give 2 LT orders to an NCO unit. It is a fine unit, but over powered it certainly is not, and leaving it is vanilla Nomads is not a problem.
Well that's the joke, right? It's a mediocre unit in Nomads because Nomads have far, far better things to spend their points on. Not every faction has that option.
That's not the joke, 8 pages and counting of incessant circular whining by the same people who don't do very well at the game over and over is the joke. It's just not that funny.
Sorry I didn't take the "pick faction with noninteractive abilities in-game, take low-risk moves, enjoy an unearned advantage over my opponent, win" option. It's the same thing - factions that have to interact with their opponent to score points start the game losing, and the people balancing the game don't appreciate this.
Oi, don’t put words in my mouth friend. I never said Nomads shooting was superior to PanO, only that Nomads have models that compete with what PanO can bring. Personally I think the Intruder’s glory days are long over; it’s crazy expensive for what it does and other models do it’s job for cheaper. But that wasn’t the point of that discussion. The option existing at all was what mattered, and I only brought it up when PStorm claimed that Kusanagi was the best shooter in Vanilla Nomads, which she isn’t. … At any rate if we get back to the main point of this thread; I don’t think the Daemonist breaks anything, but giving Nomads a survivable LT with +1 Order is a bit of a design bend given how weak Nomads are at Command in general; it’s easier to accept when such bends are restricted to a sectorial, less so when they are added to Vanilla.
Can you help me understand this statement? What about the daemonist do you find to be PanO-like? The stats, skills, and equipment all look fairly reasonable for Nomads to me - it's a tricky hacker lieutenant that is likely to die quickly if the opponent ever gets a bead on it. People are calling out "command and control" on the +1 order lieutenant, but that's been sprinkled around to a number of factions in N4. It's certainly not a skill that I strongly associate with PanO; it seems to be most common in Yu Jing and Combined. As for the profile in general, I kind of agree that it's a bit expensive and mediocre. Decoy is an ok defense, but it's not as strong as camo, and it's permanently lost as soon as you try to use your expensive hacker to hack anything. Guard is ok, but so long as the enemy can attack you from more than 8" away, it doesn't help, and it's always tied with the downside of a larger silhouette (which makes it easier to get line of fire on you). Counterintelligence first appeared in Nomads, so I certainly can't see an argument that it's not a Nomad-y skill. etc.
Nobody here cares about the Moirai, they're fine. Getting a bit of extra efficiency will occasionally see one getting table time. It's the Daemonist, and to a lesser extent the Cenobites and Initiates (whole different and admittedly minor problem with those guys though), that have people ruffled. While several experienced players have made a point that the Daemonist is a bit too expensive for what it does for the faction, the fact remains that Nomads have received a dedicated LT unit, putting a nail in the last thing that could charitably be described as a "faction-wide weakness" while several other factions still struggle with major obstacles that they cannot work around, even at a premium. This has opened some old wounds among veteran players, to say the least. On topic of the whole "shooting" debacle, I believe we can summarise all the maths and arguments down to "Nomads can get within a few percentage points of PanO performance in direct shooting fields at a small points premium"? If I may be so bold, since Nomads is meant to be the worst faction at direct gunfighting and given numerous tools to avoid unfavourable fights while PanO is the best at direct shooting, could we maybe get a WIP 14, BTS 6 Hacking Device Plus with some free Upgrades for 32pts to balance it all out? That'd get our top end Hacking within about the same margin to an Interventor as Nomads get against PanO elite shooting, seems only fair. /s, by the way.
Thank you for summarizing my trash writing posted in this thread in a gentle but clear way. I couldn't write it better because I'm WIP 12 X).
