And is 7 points more expensive and unlinkable. Yes but this requires orders. If you need more orders than another guy to do the same thing you are not good at the thing. Kusanagi is not good killing snipers, no matter what FtF calculator says. So why are you trying to prove something by posting FtFs of what basically amounts to a misplay in most situations?
First, Kusanagi and the Intruder are the same points and this is Vanilla Nomads where linkability doesn’t matter. Second, Not leaving something out in ARO only costs orders if you’re silly and leave it out in the middle of the firelane instead of using part of your move order to retreat back around the corner. Unless you started exactly 4” away from where you wanted to be, which happens but you usually have at least a quarter of an inch left, which is all you need to duck back out of sight. Third, because that’s what Psychotic used in his argument. I didn’t choose the comparison, he did. Go yell at him for putting up nonsensical scenarios that don’t even prove his point.
I would say no here, especially for Kusanagi. Against Nisse, Kusanagi has 68.3% to win F2F(v1). Swiss Guard has 72.7% to win F2F without surprise attack(v2). If Kusanagi gets haris bonus, she has 72.5% to win F2F(v3). Swiss Guard with surprise attack has 83.8% winrate but Kusanagi with full core wins on 84.5%. Against Volkolak with full core bonus, Kusanagi with full core wins F2F for 89.2%(v4) while Joan with full core wins on 87.6%(v5). Of course the winrate changes against different troop, different MSV, and different bonus, but Kusanagi is just as good as PanO BS15 shooters, with more versatile supports. [edit] Actually, I made mistake on calculating Joan. Volkolak's success value should be 15, so Joan loses more.
Honestly, I believe this sentence is the only right statement you wrote today out of all your posts I've read; even if the meaning was not what you wanted to imply. Surely you can't put Pano and Nomads on the same level, 90% of Pano profiles are below average, 90% of Nomads profiles are clearly above average.
To be fair, even if I never said it I never assumed the PanO player would be so bad at playing to let the Nomad player get the best possible scenario outside of having the Nisse in white noise and out of cover, then again I never specified what weapon a Nisse would have or that Kusanagi would be active, I just gave a classic unit I have used to neutralize Moiras.
People pointed out that the shooting units in Nomads are on-par with those in PanO, and that PanO has far more limitations outside of that. You've basically acknowledged their argument at this point but are still acting like you're right.
Szalamandra vs Dragao is the perfect example to show why PanO is more of a shooty army than Nomads. It is not about the +1 BS (though it is definitely not insignificant). It is all about the remote presence. "B-b-but it doesn't affect the FtF! It's not about shooting". It doesn't affect the roll, but it does affect the consequences of the roll, and thus whether you will decide to take the roll. Thanks to Remote Presence, when you get aro critted, or just brought low through attrition, Dragao has easier time to get back into shooting than Szally. Dragao risks less. So when presented with an unclear tactical situation, Dragao player risks less than Szally player, and would be punished less for being unlucky at shooting or misjudging their chances. In other words a Dragao player who easily defaults to "just shoot it dead with a TAG", will lose less (battles) than a Szally player who defaults as often to the same approach. And that is what makes Dragao (and PanO) shootier, not +1 BS. Being good at a thing is not only having good chances to succeed, but also taking less punishment in case you fail, which makes you more likely to actually do the thing. In this case - to shoot with the shooty army.
How does it matter to Nisse-Intruder comparison? You are aware that units in midfield are less secure than units hiding behind your speedbumps in your DZ? Sending Kusanagi at a sniper is costing you orders and making her less secure, even if she finishes in total cover (I never assumed otherwise). A HMG, even with worse FtF modifiers will be most of the time the better solution. I did make a mistake of joining the conversation without reading all the walls of text between you two, but it doesn't change the point that FtFs between Kusanagi and Nisses prove little, because if someone is regularly using Kusanagi this way he is not gonna be playing the top table.
Fair points, though with Kusanagi having an extra wound and +2 BS over a Moira it changes the math quite a bit. And i would hope the MSV2 would be useful vs the ODD trooper; it is it’s job after all. A more apt comparison would be vs Mendoza, where he wins on ARO due to DA ammo and Continuous but comes up a bit short in Active as his AP and Continuous don’t quite make up for +1B and +1 Dam. Also he’s like 15 points more expensive and has a very different role. Bur regardless my point was that Nomads has troops that rival PanO for shooting, and that’s what people are upset about; that Nomads can compete with other factions even in things they are great at while keeping their own niche (hacking) that they are indisputably the best at.
They are not though, Nomads do not have the PanO ballistic performance and a single top performing unit in a skewed scenario because I gave an example on a whim proves nothing other than the active player in ideal conditions has a better chance at taking out the opposition (and the active nisse takes down Kusanagi far more reliably).
Didn’t realize you meant the Nisse, but this isn’t really a discussion about Efficiency, it’s about Effectiveness. And stop getting caught up on the specific scenario (which again, I did not invent). I. Would. Not. Send. Kusanagi. After. A. Sniper. The scenario is hypothetical and pointless because I’m just going to White Noise or Eclipse and ignore it entirely. Kusanagi has better targets and I have better things to be doing with orders than trying to FtF a sniper in the opposing DZ.
Again, you haven't proven that. If Nomads can find, say, 3 units that perform as well as top-tier PanO shooters that's enough to have that situation covered. In the end, though, it doesn't matter too much, because the Nomad noninteractive game is so strong Nomads functionally start the game winning and their opponent has to make risky moves to get on even footing.
And this is why Nomads are not a shooty army the way PanO is. They may have a few profiles with good BS, but those usually have opportunity costs and not insignificant drawbacks (examples are lack of remote presence on Szally, mid range gun on Kusanagi, typical aro threats ignoring most of Intruder's expensive toolkit). This combined with strengths in other areas, means that if you want to win battles by mostly shooting stuff you're better off with PanO. Now, I'm not saying Nomads aren't stronger than PanO overall. I do not know that. PanO seems rather average now so it is possible. I'm just saying that a few high BS profiles do not a shooty army make. I'm also glad we moved from "Nomads are bullying CA" to "Nomads are bullying PanO". Cause the second one is at least plausible.
Well the question is if winning battle by mostly shooting stuff is a good idea... and it turns out it isn't.
If that's the question then it is an entirely different question than whether Nomads are better at shooting than PanO.
That wasn’t the question, the question was do Nomads have units that rival PanO at shooting. Which given that Kusanagi, Vostoks, Intruders, Kriza, Grenzers, and Szally exist, is a definite “Yes.” At least that’s the question I was answering.
And most of my posts here were explaining how being good at shooting is not limited to looking at a couple of FtFs out of context.
