Make it a section 4 long or 8 long and it achieves the same thing. Dt zones are infinite height so you cant jump over them
You would never do that though. In game terms the silhouette will be moving along the wire, but in logical terms the trooper would be following the wire on one side. Plus, unless you go swimming in the stuff like a masochist Scrooge McDuck, you're actually not that likely to injure yourself on razor wire, since the sharp bits are very obvious. The minor punctures and lacerations are unlikely enough to render you unconscious (or a similar level of distraction) that I don't think they can be represented in a D20 system. Unless you're in ECW in the late 90s barbed wire razor wire and their futuristic cousins are deterrents, not weapons. I had an idea of how to represent it in the tabletop as well. What if you have an expanding foam imbedded with monofilament foils. Essentially sharp silly string. You can easily represent it with regular string painted bright colours, or very thin tinsel. I even have a name : Self Polimerising Urethane Tactical Epoxy (Monofilament) or SPUTEM. Cos it looks like snot.
Let's check this. At first, I thought normal Difficult Terrain should be enough. Then I came up with the following scenario: Skirmisher (4-4) moves 3 inches up to base contact with a razor wire, fires a burst. Next order, moves over and may even move again at full speed. Virtually no obstacle at all. Lets say it is very difficult terrain: the player of the skirmisher would lose an order to move the skirmisher over the razor wire. I think this is what we want. No matter how realistic this really is, the element of razor wire should mean a real obstacle. Of course, it should not be too harsh. Please contradict me as hard as you can, that is the point of me writing this. I am happy to change my opinion.
That's why the difficult terrain idea is so compelling. I once jumped over razor wire but it took a bit of courage because those razor bits do look scary. I don't want to end up entangled in the mesh. Another time I climbed over a fence that had razor wire on top by throwing a very sturdy rag over the razor wire and then climbing over it. I still was a bit scared that the razors would cut through the rug into my flesh once I put weight on the rag. Maybe you should put your ingeniouity into the other direction: How about a foam that hardens on impact. People could spray it over razor wire so they can pass over it? I would like that much better than expanding foam embedded into monofilament foils designed to cut into people.
Oh it wouldn't be designed to cut people. It would be designed to embed itself in your flesh requiring medical attention to remove. If it then has a serial number stamped in the foils(probably by the can itself so each application is a unique instance, linked to the comlog or GPS etc) that hospitals are required to report to law enforcement, that would mean that the authorities would know that you tried to get in somewhere that you shouldn't have...
I think you only need it to hold you up 1 Short Skill. Which is all it costs to lay. Hmmm, I honestly thought that DT rules applied 'when reaching the edge of the zone', so the stopping applied both entering and leaving. ie: 1. Your Skirmisher (4-4) moves 3" to base contact with the razor wire, then gets a second action. 2. They Vault the razor wire and stops immediately on the other side, then gets a second action. Which would cost you ~4" movement. Probably the easiest way to achieve that would be to make it:
No contradiction at all thats how it would work. But consider a few situations. Firstly, that skirmisher starts the order say 1" away from the razor wire. He still moves into B2b and stops, so its costing that order regardless. Secondly, in the scenario you have described thats put the skirmisher in a position where he is liable for 2 AROs that can be shot at him without him having cover or low vis mods or burst mods to help him survive. Thats pretty rough all told for any unit. Thridly, consider the order efficiency. A ten order list is going ti have to be expending 10 percent of their resources moving past that wire, if you start making it even harder, and then you put a lot of it on the table, you coild pretty readily get to the point where you cannot effectively play the game at all with low orders. But hey this is just my thoughts in the matter about what id find practical but not game distorting for razor wire rules.
Looking at the rules again, the skirmisher could indeed shoot after reaching the wire, so the effect of 2 defenceless AROs is not necessarily the case. He might have cover from another source like a wall. Low vis may or may not apply. If a smoke grenade has been used, the trooper deserves to vault over that razor wire in safety. The movement lost due to getting to the wire will always be circumstantial, but I agree, there is likely to be a loss. What is also circumstantial is whether the skirmisher gets cover or is in camo state when approaching the wire. Then again, since the skirmisher could move up to 4 inches including vaulting over the fence, it is circumstantial whether there will be cover after this. The strong point of your argument is that the defender may decide where the wire is to begin with. I can imagine that your scenario is more likely to happen than mine, and in yours, the wire would indeed be an obstacle serious enough. Ok that being said, lets imagine it is Very Difficult terrain. I will stick with a Movement 4-4 trooper because 4-2 troopers are obviously feeling the obstacle. The 4-4 Movement trooper would approach the wire, lose the rest of the possible movement. Can maybe shoot. Since the wire does not provide cover, it is quite possible that there is no other cover. Spends another order, goes over the wire. This full order only makes him move 4". Ok, this scenario seems closer to reality for me. However, I see your point in razor wire being too effective if there is a certain quantity. I have to admit that I am not sure about this. I think this is something that depends on so many circumstantial factors that it is hard to judge without playtesting it. Less is often more and very difficult terrain may be too much. I have never used very difficult terrain, but I think you are right that it is too order intensive for comfort in huge amounts. CB may have made a mistake on this just like the doors which cost half an order to open.
I didnt say defenseless i said no visual mods no cover nothing. Strong aros will be hitting back on 30-40% odds of dropping that model due to it hanging around in the open. Its a practical death sentence and very dangerous to engage anything out of cover in this game. Edit: you also cant "vault" a difficult terrain zone. They are infinitely high. Movement through Difficult Terrain. Example 1 A trooper in Active Turn with a MOVAttribute of 4–2 is outside a Difficult Terrain area. She declares the Short Movement Skill Move and makes contact with the Difficult Terrain, whereupon her Movement ends immediately, even if she would normally be able to move the rest of her MOV (if she had moved 3 inches, she would forfeit her remaining 1 inch). She would need to declare a new Order to keep moving, and for the purposes of that Order her MOV would be 2–2. Similarly, in her Reactive Turn, she declares Dodge outside the Difficult Terrain area, and her Dodge moves her into base contact with the Difficult Terrain, whereupon her Dodge movement ends immediately, even if she had not exhausted it. Thats how the troops move over wire. To me making them then take a free face punching just trying to get it is too much
If there is no other cover, you are right. Apart from that, of course, the defender needs to have someone there to shoot at the trooper crossing the wire. I am tending to agree with you. I can imagine that in a real game, the difficult terrain variation would be enough. What are your thoughts of the defender being able to destroy razor wire? Options are that you need an engineer for this, cutting through the wire. Or you could maybe blow it to bits with anti-materiel ammo. This is imaginable with a missile launcher blast, but not with a round of a DA sniper shot or a tactical bow.
I shouldn't have written "vault". that was confusing. I imagined the situation exactly according to the rules you quote. I think if I were to try this, I would go for your version now. If that proved to be too weak on the razor wire part, I would try the very difficult terrain version. The problem is that I can't play enough games to figure out what is really the best way. With that in mind, i think it is better to stick with Difficult Terrain, because I prefer to err on the side of caution. The game is not about realistic representation of combat, its just for entertainment and a bit of tactical thinking. By the way, the soldier in the famous picture I posted above threw away his rifle to be able to jump the wire better on that day in Berlin, 1961.
well, if you have any scenarios you have in mind im sure my gaming group would be happy to help. we get about 5-10 games in between us a week, and usually they are enough to iron out the chinks in any scenarios, flick em my way or inane imps. And I totally agree, if it feels inconsequential and a waste of time more than the introduction of a good game element totally bump em to VDT edit: Sick photo
@daboarder unless you and your opponent specify height. I wouldn't say it formally qualifies for an obstacle, so vaulting still wouldn't be allowed. @prophet of doom that looks like a trooper jumping over the wires, not a trooper vaulting over or through them. Basically vaulting is using the obstacle surface for a boosted movement. From reading a few replies in here it sounds like in general people aren't really in agreement over whether this is permanent installation razor wire or a field job. A permanent installation would basically be equivalent to several layers of wire mesh net that's designed to savage anyone trying to climb it - i.e. you wouldn't be able to move through it and you wouldn't be able to climb it (40k equivalent is unpassable terrain, which is something that's lacking in Infinity), but with proper equipment (Engineer, antimateriel CCWs) you'd be able to take it out of action. Source on this is hobby observations of old cold war artillery installations that's been left abandoned on the Swedish coastline. Those wires were placed to force infantry to deal with them before traversing, not to let them squeek through by adopting awkward movement patterns. I'm also doubtful dogs would've been able to traverse them.
you are right, the NVA had done a sloppy job fencing off the area where the East German government intended to build the Berlin wall. Their own soldiers could just jump over it. They made the wire higher after that event covered in the photo. You obviously can only vault over a razor wire by using, for example a sturdy rug. I think we all rather imagine field jobs. The installation you describe in Sweden sound like they could only be traversed by removing the wire.
@prophet of doom I have a couple of suggestions after the exchanges here so far. 1) Maybe choose a code name for your special 23rd Century razor wire to distinguish it from actual 20th Century razor wire; to give yourself more freedom to work around the fluff and the rules. 2) Perhaps create a new Type of Terrain to categorize Doom Wire™ eg. 'Doomwire Terrain' so that it keys into the Terrain rules, and would allow units with Multiterrain to be seamlessly integrated into such scenarios so that a unit with Multiterrain could then declare 'Doomwire Terrain' as the Type of Terrain in which to specialize. 3) I see that the Paradiso missions had a lot of rules for terrain which might be usable in principle here. Could Hostile Environment be more or less directly applied to Doom Wire™?
No, because troopers are perfectly save in Hostile Environments unless they do something that requires rolling dice. I was quite happy with the razor wire rules until I realised that it would not be possible to ignore the wire using the super jump skill. That would be a bit silly. I don't really think that razor wire would have to become even worse in the next 175 years to play the part in Infinity that we want it to. it is pretty awful right now.
