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Rarely used profiles

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by SirTycho, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. SirTycho

    SirTycho Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    When I click around in the Army Builder, I get this thought every now and then:
    There are profiles I have never (or almost never) seen in lists. And I've never tried them myself, maybe because I've been influenced by Magonus' outstanding tutorials since the beginning. And of course because I don't play as often as I could try new toys every time.

    I'm thinking of choices like for example:
    - Kamael with Light Grenade Launcher
    - Kerail with Muton Beast
    - Chaksa with Smart Heavy Rocket Launcher
    - actually all Ectros and Gorgos


    Are there any players who bet on these choices? Maybe fans and lovers of these rare selections?
    Or are there players who have actually tried these selections and made a conscious decision against them?
     
  2. Sora9785

    Sora9785 Well-Known Member

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    Ectros and Chaksa HRL are really okay. The Ectros can be a really great zone holder and the chaksa is a good ARO piece.

    Kamael LGL: I used the standard trooper LGL in the beginning but after ~5 games with them I just started to ignore them. Everybody can just shoot them down and they have a abysmall BS for speculative fire

    Gorgos: Well the Gorgos can be good but I find it lacking that Tohaa has 2 Engineers and only 1 Doctor (who is also an Engineer). The Gorgos has W instead of Str, gets the -6 on dodges and can be hacked. In my opinion it has all the negative mods for being a TAG and none of the good ones. It can be killed with one light flamethrower. I played it rarely and it just got critted away, always. So it is a profile that I will only use in LI games

    Mutan: The Mutan beast only worked for me once but it was hilarious. Your opponent must decide between the controller or the Mutan beast to shoot. The guns of the Kerail are not really amazing but it can be devastating to get him into his support units. And the Mutan could give him 4 ARM rolls. You should not try to engage high ARM opponents, other than that it can chew (shoot) through nearly every enemy IF used correctly
     
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  3. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Your list is in my opinion too short

    Chaksa Auxiliar
    - Neurocinetics HMG: not buffable, no defensive mods
    - SHRL: no repeater and hacker/Sat Lock for assistens

    Clipsos Infiltrator
    - Sniper Rifle: less use due to lack of DA ammunition

    Ectros
    - ALL: too expensive in comparison to the Sukeul. Vulnerable to Hacking and Fire, therefore the additional wound isn't worth it.

    Gao-Rael
    - Boarding Shotgun: limited use due to MI

    Gao-Tarsos
    - HMG: Bad rangeband for an AD troop

    Gorgos
    - can't be repaired to full Health, Hacking and fire vulnerability, Limited Range with Spirfire

    Igao
    - ALL: one trick pony like Impersonator but worse due to Frenzy.

    Kaauri Sentinel
    - ALL but SMG: to expensive for the poor BS without link bonus.

    Kamael
    - Spitfire and LGL: to expensive in points and SWC.

    Kerail Perceptor
    - Mutan Symbiobeast: no smoke grenades and Pulzar and viral CC better then 2 Contender

    Kosuil Assault Pionier
    - Minelayer: No specialist/engineer

    Makaul
    - BS and CR: to expensive or wrong rangeband for its role in a triad

    Sukeul
    - K1 SR: no DA, low Burst, wrong rangeband, high SWC cost

    Taquel
    - ALL: To expensive, SymbioBugs in reactive turn less useful, because targeted is there wasted.
     
  4. Antares

    Antares Well-Known Member

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    First of all I have to say I am a weird Tohaa player according to the lists we regularly see posted here. I don't own Kerails, Kaeltars, Rasails or Sukeuls. The reason behind that is that I tend to stay away from units people don't like and with all the symbiohate I just don't want to use them. The other reason is aesthetics (Sukeuls urrrgh their profile is dope their model is nope!). Considering I seem to leave out some of our best units I still feel Tohaa are my best faction to win games (in Op: Flamestrike I had like 4 wins and 2 lose I recall).

    Regarding your question: I never leave house without Ectros HMG. Yeah maybe Sukeul with mimetism is better but 3 wounds have saved me so many times + it's my second favorite model in the game. The strategy is simple: Ectros (Neema?!) takes out enemies, Clipsos takes objectives (always at least 2!). Sometimes I even make lists with 3 Ectros in a Triad just for the fun of bringing 9 wounds in 3 models, they are a tough nut to crack! Fire Vulnerability isn't much of a problem when you know how to avoid flamethrowers. I may have to add that hacking isnt as wide spread in my meta as it seems to be in others so HI Links come off pretty strong from time to time. The Gorgos is quite similar to the Ectros I'd say but they should give him ODD :P

    Cheers,
    Antares
     
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  5. Cothel

    Cothel Well-Known Member

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    This may have been the best description I have ever seen for the Sukeuls.
     
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  6. SirTycho

    SirTycho Well-Known Member

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    Your post is exactly what I imagined and wished for. Brilliant!
    And it also shows how different the tastes are: I really like the punky look of the Sukeuls, but I dislike the models of the Ectros. ^^

    And I also don't own several "autoincludes" - like Makauls. Which leads to a second question:
    Not only "Which rare options do I use?", but also "Which commen options do I never use?
     
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  7. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Just a few counter points from my perspective. Obviously these sorts of lists are opinion/experience based.
    you can do silly things with 4 of them though. Plus Chaksa get to dodge on a decent roll. And the SHRL is a cheap easy to use HRL. Its not a must take but it definitely isnt bad.

    Not every army has fire. They're also not terribly expensive but they can definitely feel bad. I wouldn't say they're unusuable by any means though.

    This profile could use a Specialist skill to make it alot better.

    I definitely prefer Boarding Shotgun but HMG is still strong coming in from the sides.

    Symbio Bombs can actually repair the first wound at least and don't require someone to move around with them. And Symbiomate help prevent a major hit. The Hacking Vulnerability is somewhat mitigated by the Ability to shed your symbiote. I do miss the old Dual Flammen Spear but the Gorgos is far from bad. Its just outshone by other options.

    I mean yeah the igao just kills things dead. But its not just an impersonator with frenzy. Its a camo troop in a an army that can make a lot of shell games happen and its affordably costed.

    Being able to deploy a cheap sniper ARO piece with the visors or a Nimbus zone reliably are both pretty valuable.

    I'd say Kerail are generally a bigger issue as a whole but I haven't used them enough personally to give a strong opinion.

    I think those are less issues than just K1 snipers being bad because of the damage drop really. Long range weapons were very limited in Tohaa and the K1 SR cold have been a useful slot filler. Its just out shone by other options because it doesn't excel as a weapon.

    Taquel is a solid LT, and another option for COC. Symbio bugs are just crazy koalas with an upside. I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue Koalas are bad...
     
  8. Antares

    Antares Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. Makauls are awesome fillers alongside cheap specialist aka Kamael FO. I even managed to paint 2! Guess how much I usually use...
    Another thing: Igaos. I'd love to use him/her more, but Clipsos take the cake most of the time. Anyone ever tried a camo heavy list with like 2 clipsos, 2 igaos? Usually when making a list if there are less than 3 Triads I feel vulnerable:thinking_face:

    ..
    Are Kotails a thing?
     
  9. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    Ive played 3 clipsos and two igao before, just to go all in. It was the mission with loot boxes along the center line on each half and a beacon or something to control in the middle. One igao died from discover-shoot, the other died because he went crazy with bloodlust from frenzy. Two of the clipsos were minelayer, so i at least had that shell game going. I would say it was a fun thing to try, but not reliable at all.


    Kotails are very fun, mebbe even good in limited insertion, but overall they are too squishy to be taken that seriously. Sure they have an extra wound, but that extra wound is essentially naked with no mobility.
     
    #9 borings, Jan 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  10. Antares

    Antares Well-Known Member

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    I recently started Yu Jing and still try to figure out how to effectively use Holo L2. They are good to clear mines I guess.
     
  11. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Don't use the Holoecho for mindgames with your opponent. Take a Symbiomate and use the Echos for surprise shot and mine/koala clearing. The EM granade is awsome against HI links when indirect thrown.
     
  12. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    @TheRedZealot: It's only my personal oppinion. I respect your too. All my decissions are made on my own experiences and yes, they are subjektive :grin:
     
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  13. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    100% Everything you've argued is definitely a defendable position. Just wanted to make sure we highlighted for other players that other options are possible too :) (Maybe even convince you to give some other units more of a chance ;) ) And definitely can be helpful to understand a local meta. I know we're not super hardcore cutthroat for the most part locally, and I've been playing for ~10 years and a lot of games over all so YMMV.

    On the topic of Kotail. Did they ever clarify if the mate is duplicated or not? I thought it wasn't making the mate on the Kotail not great.

    On the other hand you give me a super jump, fast moving Forward Observer with E/M grenades and Im going to have a good time. Using Holo 2 as Holo 1 is also a favorite of mine. Especially now that we have the Libretto there are so many mind games you can play to try and throw your opponent off.
     
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  14. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is clarified in the FAQ. The mate must always be on the real model.
     
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  15. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    reading the rules it's pretty clear to me that they are duplicated; they are a marker from equipment from another troop, and holoecho states that markers on the troop get reflected in the holoechoes. the only argument i've seen against them being duplicated seems to hinge on the idea that the kotail cannot copy someone else's equipment, but they aren't copying someone else's equipment, they are copying an actual marker given to them by an actual other troop. that being said, your mileage may vary in your local meta. here in philly it seems pretty accepted that they get duplicated, and i would say seeing as how there isn't an actual faq about it just try your luck discussing it with your local meta.
     
  16. nehemiah

    nehemiah Well-Known Member

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    I think it worth mentioning the Mutan has a Pulzar as well as its 2 Contenders. The Kerail in these profiles also gains a Nanopulser. So if you can get it into the opponent's backfield it can create some loose-loose choices for the opponent. That said I think this profile has trouble because the Surda profile has more versatility due to the Kerail having smoke, and the CC capabilities of the Surda.

    I have been trying out the Ectross more, but I am not a big fan of the model when it is taken along side other Tohaa because of how small it is, even compared to Kamael, so I am hoping to see a re-sculpt to bring them up to the same size as the new Neema. My main take away is that it gives the Kamael WHD something to do, (just do not put her in the same fireteam). Being able to take an engineer along with you tends to mitigate the issue of being hack able. BS 13 for 2 wounds, (going down to BS 12 for its third wound), is not bad at all. The HMG is a clear favorite, though I do want to try the Vulkan Shotgun.
    Neema is a separate beast all together. Viral pistol in a triad is great. BTS 9 goes up to 12 with Fairy Dust, making her pretty effective at ignoring hacking. WIP 15 is great for powering bombs. CC 21 and MA 2 makes her less of a target for CC units, and gives her a huge advantage against non-CC units. Breaker and Spitfire are both decent as the Breaker version also comes with a Panzerfaust, but I tend to take the Spitfire as I do not feel like I can get the most out of the +1 SWC unless I am playing a 10 order list.
     
  17. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Sry, have to revise my comment, can't find it in the actual FAQ. I know I red it somewhere, I'm searching.
     
  18. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I just double checked I believe they clarified the wiki abit. The rule question stems from the Holoprojector rules.

    Emphasis mine.
    Given that the Symbiomate is a piece of equipment represented by a model and is specifically listed as not duplicatable...
     
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  19. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    in order to not take this thread off topic i made a new one for discussion of this
     
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  20. nehemiah

    nehemiah Well-Known Member

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    One of the units I like to hide the Kotail as is 3 Makaul. They are one of the few units with the Triad rule that are sometimes deployed unlinked but close together so that their impetuous order can be used in the first turn to advance or throw smoke before linking them up with a Command Token.
    I have also had success hiding it using Holo 1 as Le Muet on top of a tall building. A few times I have brought Le Muet as well so the opponent has to decide which to cover with MSV2 AROs.
    A newer tactic I have started using is hiding it using Holo 1 as the Diplomatic Delegate and bringing a Libertos as well. The Libertos provides an Irregular order to the order pool, but until it reveals from the camo state the opponent will see only the diplomat as the source of the Irregular order, so it works to hide both the Libertos, and the Kotail.