Re: MML2 To me, this makes a Zhayedan link a viable competitive alternative to the standard Ramah preferences. They are further differentiated by the weapons they can or cannot take and the kind of specialists they can tow. This would at least make them a compelling option that would have a strong possibility of being chosen over other unit types depending on meta. As opposed to now where there is literally no reason to take them over other choices unless you really just want to try them out. Re: Automedkit Let's get this out of the way first, I agree with everything you've been saying. I'm just trying to figure out what would make Zhayedan's more workable. If its not core skill MML2 then their only other unique trait needs attention which is the automedkit/regen. Skills which outside of a couple units in the the game (e.g. Asawira) don't offer too much actual benefit for the cost. Regen at least provides shock immunity, automedkit is a very expensive piece of kit which on a zhayedan has a 45% chance of being useless... on a single wound model as well. I don't think 1 unit having a piece of equipment that reduces a slightly reduces doctor need for that unit will replace doctors in army lists. In Ramah there are only 2 units that can self-heal and they are not core units (although Zhayedan is trying to be?). I don't think buffing automedkit would spoil the medical porridge of infinity at all. As things stand that is. I do agree that healing overall should be reassessed in Infinity but that's a personal subjective opinion. I think there's more than enough lethality in the game to boost likelihood of getting someone up if you're expending orders to take the action. Which is why something like automedkit at least being automatic and not requiring a roll would at least be ~something~ that makes it worth paying for. Even if the auto doesn't work in your favour (i.e. you roll for rez immediately after lethal so if it triggers in your opponents turn, they can decide to put in another shot to take out the threat). That to me is a decent alternative to the current situation. Autotriggers instantly upon death giving you chance of getting back up but also stuns the unit so they don't get non-stop AROs against the enemy but you can try to dodge out of the way. At least that's situationally useful as opposed to an automedkit currently which is simply situationally usable. I promise however to stop banging this drum. Unless poor unit sales prompts CB to properly look at the unit, nothing is going to change. At some point I will play around with Zhayedan haris just to say I've done it and its not just mathfinity theoretical complaints. But its hard justifying even the haris when there's better gun fighters. To me its weird that in a sectorial with some very interesting and versatile links, the Zhayedan core is so dull. Wildcards are possible sure but this unit out of all others not having more flexibility to make them appealing is just baffling to me.
Well, there's one more way this can turn out, and that being CB not touching Zhayedans because they have some general changes prepared for N4 that will affect them. Other than that, I don't really disagree with points that were made, it's just mostly general issues of changing something that many armies have on a rather different units. It can be rather problematic. See: TA on TAGs.
So I've been racking my brain trying to come up with some lists for an upcoming ITS. With regards to RTF, how many orders should I be shooting for because I keep falling on either 10 or 10 and a 3 order second group that is useless. I generally struggle to make lists with more than 10 orders. Also has anyone had any success with a 5 man khawarji link? If so, what did you put in your list to support them?
I had this problem before Geodron. What I've since accepted is that like most factions in this game, you want to end up with either 10 or say, 15 with maybe a couple of Irregulars (Monstrucker(s), Warcor, Carmen etc) for a total of 16-18 orders. You might want to check the section at the bottom of the guide on listbuilding as hopefully it'll help you out on strategies to either bump/limit the order count accordingly. :)
I have a feeling there is something in store for Zhayedan in N4. I have used a double sniper Haris in a LI list and it....works. 1.5 SWC for cover ignoring B2 snipers is not terrible as a defensive team.
I've definitely struggled with that same problem, but it's hard to offer advice without know what exactly you're taking. What's your core team look like? Are you using a haris or various solo pieces? Are you using fanous?
I've read it and its been helpful. But I am not really a fan of Infinity spam game style. I don't see the point of CB making all these fabulous models and then people building lists where they use like one and then have a bunch of mooks that have no business in a cyber punk black ops skirmish game. Of course I realize I am probably making everything harder for myself. Right now I am trying to build around the 5 khawarji models and the hmg/lgl alfasid. I do intend on the 3 fanous. Missions are countermeasures, biotechvore, unmasking and decapitation.
If you really want to go all-in on khawarij, you could take Tarik L2 and a khawarij haris that can spend those orders. I particularly like this one for decapitation, where your opponent has to dig Tarik out of a core team to kill him, while you're still attacking with a linked spitfire or Mk12. That might look something like this. Ramah Taskforce──────────────────────────────────────────────────10 KHAWARIJ (Fireteam: Haris, NCO) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 30) KHAWARIJ (Fatality L2) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (1.5 | 32) KHAWARIJ Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 30) FASID HMG + (Smoke and Normal) Light Grenade Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 53) TARIK MANSURI Lieutenant L2 Spitfire, Nanopulser, Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 59) GHULAM Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 16) GHULAM Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16) LEILA SHARIF Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Shock Marksman Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) NAFFATÛN Rifle + Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) NAHAB Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun + E/Mitter, Nanopulser / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 30) 6 SWC | 299 PointsOpen in Infinity Army That particular list suffers from not having NCO in the core team in case it gets aggressive, as well as exposing Tarik as the only attack piece. Cutting the al fasid for something like a TR bot would free up the points and SWC to get the ghulam NCO and khawarij Mk12 in there, but you lose the defensive brick of the fasid. The other direction you could take it is to have your second combat group consist of a khawarij haris and two or three fanous. This is something I've liked doing with mukhtar, but it should still work. That's around 120 points, so the first group will need to be pretty ghulam heavy. This particular list combines a core team with some ablative members with a couple of Ramah's more interesting tools, while still retaining an attack piece in the core. Ramah Taskforce──────────────────────────────────────────────────GROUP 1 8 1 1 GHULAM Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16) GHULAM (NCO) Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher (Normal and Smoke Ammo.) / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 16) GHULAM Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) LEILA SHARIF Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Shock Marksman Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) KHAWARIJ (Fatality L1, Multispectral Visor L2) Mk12 / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 36) GHULAM Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 16) GHULAM Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 16) CARMEN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades + Bâtard / Heavy Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 22) BÂTARD Trench-hammer, AP CCW. (- | 5) NAHAB Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun + E/Mitter, Nanopulser / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 30)GROUP 2 6 KHAWARIJ (Fireteam: Haris, NCO) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 30) KHAWARIJ Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 30) KHAWARIJ (Fatality L2) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (1.5 | 32) FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 4.5 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army
You could roll the haris into the core team. Nothing states the haris model HAS to be in a haris and he has nco.
Not sure I follow the logic there Geodron - surely if you're playing with higher order count you have more options and models on the table, not less? Particularly as even a 17 order list still has plenty of room for elite choices. For example, I'm looking at one now that has 2x Khawarijs, a Nahab, a Mukhtar AND a Tuareg. (9/1 and 5/2 orders respectively for the groups). It's actually the 10 group list that's more restrictive as there are models that will practically never see play for being too cheap? But I get it, to each their own - some prefer a lower model count playstyle, and that's perfectly fine :) I think the key to making that work is variety - the smaller model count lists don't have the sheer volume of orders to get things done, which means you need more tools for the job. With the missions that you have, I'd say building one that can tackle Countermeasures and Biotechvore is wise (due to the volume of classifieds), and then you can focus your second list around a more mobile killing focus for Decap/Unmasking with a durable Lt. For list 1, I'd start by going through the Classified Deck and trying to make sure you have a choice in the list for each objective, then build around making sure you have sufficient orders to get out the zone (likely, with a link team). E.g. a Namurr, Nahab KHD, Ghulam Doc, Ghulam NCO, Fasid HMG, Monstrucker should cover most of your classified needs, and then you can focus on what else you want in the link to bump firepower a bit and get yourself an FO if there's room. The other list, I'd consider Janissaries as they're very safe for decap, and then once your link is built out, you can make sure you can have enough mobile pieces to push the middle consoles (Unmasking) and kill HVTs/Lts (Unmasking and Decap). A Nahab might work nicely here, as does the Mukhtar Haris. Alternatively you could go with Tarik, but bear in mind the desire to keep him safe might conflict with the desire to use him more offensively.
So I took the advice from this thread and applied it the best I could and actually did pretty darn good in my last couple of games. So thanks @Lazarus0909 @Koval I really enjoyed the full Khawarji link and it will probably stick around in my future lists.
Pfew. Alright, with the negativity vented out of my veins, I'm going back to the game. So, some reconsiderations: - Zhayedans. I still think they suck as the unit. But (!!!) depending on mission set I'd likely bring a Haris of them now: Rifle (Haris), Doc and Leila. Advancing under smoke from the Core Fireteam, denying passage to Hackers and having a back-up Automedkit for some self-sustain even if the doc goes down. -Khawarijs. I'm done with running a Core with Khawarijs. Too clumsy to move around, too slowed down by fellow Core members. Now Haris? Hell yeah. Opportunist Hunting Team. HRL/Doc, Mk12, Haris. But depending on the table I'd switch between Khawarij and Mukhtar Haris lists. Ain't no place for opportunists if there are no opportunities.. -Hakim. Best partner for Nahab. Enough said ;) - Al Fasid. Struggle to find points for them in my lists :_(
That being said - do you think taking 3x Fanous Rems supported by EVO Kameel worth it? To start the game with B2 Flash Pulse AROs?
I definitely think so. For a start, it's pretty cheap for orders, and it provides you a good defensive perimeter. If you take a Rafiq Red Fury too you also get more force multipliers; the Fanous can deploy Sniffers for the Rafiq's Sensor (which can be considerably more order efficient than having your Rafiq running all over the place towards camo markers; you just spread out your Fanous), the Kameel can but MML2 on it for the Active Turn, and if you decide to go with aggressive hacking so many Repeaters/Kaleidoscope on the Kameel can really enhance their effectiveness and coverage. I have run the below list, and enjoy using it a lot. Ramah Taskforce ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 GHULAM HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 20) GHULAM Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 17) GHULAM (Forward Observer) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) GHULAM Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) GHULAM Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 37) MUKHTAR (Fireteam: Haris) Viral Rifle, 2 Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31) MUKHTAR Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, 2 Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30) RAFIQ REMOTE FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Red Fury, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 22) HAKIM Submachine Gun, Chain-colt + 1 Nasmat A2 / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27) NASMAT A2 Electric Pulse. (0 | 4) GROUP 2 5 NAHAB Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun + E/Mitter, Nanopulser / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 30) KAMEEL Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army The fireteam provides an order base with B2 ML in ARO to absorb enemy orders, and the Fanous can cover the nearby approaches. On the active turn, my Rafiq, Nahab and Mukhtar Haris are effective killers and the Hakim can push buttons very effectively. The Ghulam HMG has also come in handy pretty often too. Lots of orders too. I'd use this for midfield objective missions like Supplies happily.
Lol, that's practically the same roster I made, only differences are lack of Rafiq and some different minis in Core)
Tbh similar Mukhtar Haris will cost you just 2 points more. I'm not sure MSV users who you will engage in rifle rangebands with these links make very convincing argument to run Zhayedans instead. Jammers might (provided you can hide Leila from them and dive with the rest), but you will lose a lot in a tradeoff.
