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Ramah Taskforce Guide (2019) - Bourak's Finest

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Lazarus0909, Jul 26, 2019.

  1. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    Thats a big OOF buddy. I did have Raoul drop and EM her once...he got pinged by Leila, but he still EM'ed Maggy. Pilot got out and took 3 turns to get to a button but she did it!

    Only time I ever used the pilot model...
     
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  2. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    I'm with @theGricks on this one. Maggy living through the game is kinda inconsequential. Any opponent you play is going to see her and have to devote brain power to removing her ... In conjunction with Haqq's great ability to set up asymmetrical trades, this is an unparalleled opportunity for punishing their decisions.

    They go after Maggy, (which isn't an easy fight in the first place), and open themselves up to the rest of your list, or they ignore her and get a weighty piece of metal crammed down their throat in the late game.
     
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  3. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the unsettling image of Haqqislam player shoving his Maggie down his opponent's throat :_)
     
  4. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    With the caveat that MBTag is below average shooter, especially when we now have PanO-tier shooters with almost TAG mobility and even some life ensurance on their active turn (which is the selling point of TAGs).

    To me it looks like Mine Dispenser profile is more interesting, but what do I know. Whatever works, I guess.
     
  5. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Mine Dispenser is the BEST profile. Locked down a full Core with it several times. And made the Unknown Ranger kill himself when he tried to move, after I shot a mine right next to him during my turn. It's so fun =3
     
  6. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    ... Welcome to Haqqislam?
     
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  7. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    It is not 2017 anymore though.

    Now we have an access to visual mods / visors galore big boys have.

    Something to think about: depending on circumstances, a Mukhtar RF can surpass Maggie's EBS by 14 points. 14! Let that sink in for a moment.

    Sure, Maggie still has HMG rangebands, isn't as vulnerable to normal templates as similarly costed Harris is, and Mine Dispenser is nice. Maybe it plays a role in your matches, but I don't think I'm sold on just gunning things down with a model that is worse than Ghulam HMG at winning F2F - and that directly translates into order efficiency, as well as order generation, what's with it being a single model.

    Sure, winning F2F isn't everything, but almost ("almost", I give you that) all conceivable tasks are done better by something else.
     
  8. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Well-Known Member

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    Hey now, don't be so hard on yourselves. Haqq has some great shooting; the Fiday's a guided missile, yeah? :p
     
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  9. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    *Manmissile
     
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  10. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    I feel like if the odds of reviving a zhayedan was close to 70%, it'd be acceptable enough a risk for me to run a ft. Even if I had to spend orders or points bringing some kind of additional unit that boosted the revival odds to bring them up. Some kind of evo hacker for super soldiers XD

    Also, given how much fun I've been having using the Maghariba recently, absolutely loving the idea of TA on her. I feel Maggie's value is really underestimated by people, especially in Ramah. The mine dispenser profile however is a must. I don't see too much value in the cheaper profiles although that may change with TA...

    Thanks for the great write up. Really helped me ease into Ramah.
     
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  11. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Well, usually we call those Doctors. Ofc they need to reach their targets, but on the plus side, they can move with your units or have a network of assistant drones, can cost less than EVO sometimes and don't actually need to wear that Automedikit :P

    But really, getting some sort of Automedjectors would at least be something.
     
  12. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    Haha I'm talking about what would make Zhayedan's work for me. If I'm taking a doctor to run up the field anyway, I'd skip the Zhay's and take... literally anything else. The Zhayedan difference is the automedkit which is a fun idea but 55% chance of proccing is terrible. It's a risky gimmic even at higher % chances but at least one I'd be willing to flirt with. If the solution is doctor, then the better solution is a doctor supporting a different fireteam entirely XD

    It's wierd. I tell myself I want to experience MM2 + breaker weirdness and I start building a Zhayedan haris... then I just remove it and put a Mukthar haris instead XD
     
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  13. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Hey, I know, that was sort of tongue-in-cheek :)

    But tbh if we are talking about entire Fireteams, Docs are usually there and don't need to run long distances. Other times they are parked near mostly static pieces to the same effect. Not always ideal replacement since they can be first to go down, but...

    On the other hand, I kinda agree that rolling against better odds would be more interesting, and giving them standard +3 would put those odds right where you suggest them to be.

    Although I'm not sure if it's worth it in the long run to the point of fixing Zhayedans. I don't think so.

    I mean, we have Djanbazan and Asawira folks to experiment with and see how game-changing that ability is. Currently they have better odds of pulling these tricks off, by the way. Djans don't roll on 14 ofc, but at least they are immune to Shock.
     
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  14. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't even begin to compare them to units out of Ramah, especially against the amazing QK units. Some units only make sense in the limited design space of their sectorial. I can't imagine a vanilla aleph player every taking a Yadu but it has a niche in OSS.
    Similarly I thought maybe Zhayedan would have a niche in Ramah but the sectorial came out and nothing showed itself. Greater haqq minds than mine ever will be have also dismissed them. I don't understand what they're supposed to do but at least if I could make them work in Ramah I'd have an idea of what their purpose is.

    Unless the breaker+MM combo is really that crazy and I don't understand it, I can't imagine how to make the unit more workable without changes to the automedkit itself.
     
  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Well, I wouldn't suggest comparing overall unit performance, just saying we have something to judge how often it makes sense to use Regen / Automedikit and how that affect your opponent's decision making. Between those troops, you can at least notice when you use those rules in situations in which Zhayedans could realistically end up, although that would be a rough estimation. And probably not exactly fair, prone to a lot of biases.

    As for Zhayedan's niche, I'm not surprised that they struggle to find one. Almost entire Ramah shoots and survives better than they do, they are not cheap enough to make up for their "not quite there" stats, and they are definitely not cheap enough to be LoL order battery. Oh well.

    My personal issue with them (mostly carried over from Govads because I didn't even consider mass Zhayedans) is that Vet L1 doesn't even make you immune to Exile which one of my friends brings every now and then...
     
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  16. Lazarus0909

    Lazarus0909 Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I'd use Zhayedans if every single person in the link had MML2 (points might need a minor tweak - I feel they're a bit expensive, but if they all got MML2 then Sniper definitely needs to come down in cost vs. the Missile, or gain an ammo type to stack with the Shock given by MM.

    Def agree though that, in general, Regen and Automedkits both kinda need a bit of a boost - CB seems to cost these rather high compared to how most of the playerbase values their utility. Nothing to stop them giving them a flat +3 across the board, and then maybe give Asawira a teeny points bump (see also: how total immunity buff bumped Karakuri more in price than say, the Chimera in Bakunin).

    Other option is to let its use be 'free' at the start of the turn (without a penalty for failure), which I think is thematically different enough from standard doctoring and makes sense from a fluff point of view.

    Doing both of those things would make Zhayedans quite a formidable unit actually: expensive and still fragile (relatively speaking) but justifiably dangerous on both the offense and the defense to make players consider spending nearly half of your points for a full core.
     
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  17. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    Trying to revive without spending an order would at least put the auto in the automedkit. Not sure if that would make automedkit worth the cost though. I agree with mml2 being a core skill. At least that's providesa compelling case for taking them.
     
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  18. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Hm. So, Zhayedan with fully operational MML2 should perform roughly the same as Spitfire Khawarij in terms of shooting as long as there is cover for the former to ignore. Zhayedan has access to HMG while Khawarij goes in different links.

    ...I am not sure what my point is.

    For the sake of being a drag I would like to point out that Asawiras technically use different rule. Between already standing up on 14 and having readily available docs most of the time, I'm not sure I'd want them to go up in price, even though reviving on 17 is amazing.

    But I don't think combining safety, high chance and automatic application is something CB will do or something we really want.

    All of that brings me to this point, why should Automedikits even be more powerful and safer than most doctors in the game, who are already situational and aren't guaranteed anything? Maybe what we have in Infinity in general is not enough? Maybe it's time to revisit healing in general before talking about Automedikits or anything specific?
     
  19. Lazarus0909

    Lazarus0909 Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure either Barrogh! In any case, Zhayedan in a link would be 5 dice hitting on 18s with Shock. Sounds insane till you remember the Rui Shi did it first (and cheaper) with both MSV2 and Smoke :) And as you pointed out, given that this is a faction with Tarik/Khawarij Spitfires (and the Mukhtar Red Fury), there's stiff competition for active turn gunfighters in a link.

    And yeah you're right - technically Asawiras have Regen not AutoMediKit, although I prefer to talk about both together as they're pretty similar (to the extent that I kinda hope in N4 they merge the two tbh). My suggestion above though notice was an either/or - namely, it should either be more reliable (+3) or automatic without the penalty of failure at the start of turn, prefering the latter for flavor. I agree that having both would make doctors a bit redundant beyond the advantage of rerolls and the immediacy of recovering a trooper who falls down in the active turn.
     
  20. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Well, not that insane considering that BS12 links with some visual mods aren't exactly new and do roughly the same thing, depending on whether you have to kill that Kamau on the daily basis or not :P