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Private information: Cost and SWC

Discussion in 'Rules' started by WWHSD, Apr 4, 2021.

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  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Practically their timing affects the Phase not the Steps.

    IE you can't use a REMDriver deployed during the Main Deployment Step to buff a REM deployed during the Reserve Step. But you can do it the other way around.

    But it's really irrelevant if you place the REMDriver on the table first and the REM second during the same deployment Step. At the end of placing all models you go "I'm deployed. This is a REMDriver with +1BS and it will buff that REM, which is a TR HMG bot."

    There is clear timing differences BETWEEN Steps; I'm arguing that enforcing timing WITHIN a Step is a *bad thing*.

    The alternative is that you're arguing I must always place the REM on the table before I place the REMDriver on the table. Or - in the case of Minelayer or Decoy - I must place the Trooper on the table first and then immediately follow it with the Marker the skill allows me to deploy.
     
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  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    TBH, if somebody explicitly banned looking up enemy profiles in Army, it'd trigger my malicious compliance mode and I'd come with a booklet of all unit profiles, grouped by faction, printed out and bound neatly. Probably in enough copies to have one for everyone.
     
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  3. Sirk

    Sirk Well-Known Member

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    "This is a rebellion, isn't it? I rebel".
     
  4. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    If you had actually bothered to read my post, rather than looking for the first chance to yell it down, you would know that my argument is that memorizing infinity profiles is a lot easier than learning a new language, not the same. Please do not misrepresent my argument.

    Although considering the only way you seem to know how to participate in debate is to add an increasing number of swear words in an attempt to intimidate your opponents, rather than actually going through the process of actually addressing any valid points raised against you, I fear asking you to actually read, let alone understand, anything you don't agree with may be a bit much.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I mean, if you're going through the trouble of making hand-outs so you can check stats, you might as well omit the one piece of controversial information in it (points and SWC)...
     
  6. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    The bit that I know has timing is minelayer + infiltration; if you fail your infiltration roll, you lose the mine, which means you need to have committed to whether or not you want to place it before you roll.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    And yet it is still too difficult for the vast majority of the Infinity community to bother doing so. If you handed out tests asking for the private information on 500 different profiles at an event I bet you dollars to donuts people couldn't pass that shit.


    There has not been a single genuine valid point raised here. People want to cheat the system, I understand that, I make the point that they want to pretend that they're attempting to cheat the system for altruistic reasons, which they are not. They are, largely, full of shit and just want open information.

    If you say I want to play I want to look at army because I can't remember what AD things might pop out, or I want to know what my opponent might be hiding, or I want to know what their LT is. Sure, I get why you're doing it. I think it's lame as fuck and makes the game a duller experience for both parties involved, but I get why you're doing it. When you say things like "I want to look at army to help new players because if I look at army they can too." that is a bullshit excuse and you know it.


    I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again, that player will cheat no matter what you do. They're cheating, doesn't matter what rules you have they're going to take advantage of them and cheat.

    This isn't some million dollar sports event, we don't need to balance the game around some dickhead who wants to cheat. That player will get caught doing something shady at some point, man up and cut them out of the community.

    I know a certain 40k player with a really bad reputation at major events tried switching to warmachine in the Australian meta. As I understand, TOs were all over his shit and chased him right out of it.
     
    #247 Triumph, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  8. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    If you think there has not been a single genuine valid point raised in the thread, it's because you didn't the thread at all.

    There are valid arguments on both side and it boils down to whether or not you think that recalling information that is entirely independant of the game state is a skill you want to test during your game. I personally think it's a terrible thing to test people on (both in casual and competitive setting).

    I don't know of any competitive game that makes those kind of informations hidden.

    Some of the arguments in favour of it though is that it levels the playing field, makes people not reliant of recalling informations that are independant of the game state. You actually test your opponent solely on decisions based on the game state. If you want to create uncertainty in your list, just add uncertainty. Expecting your list with only 1 potential LT to be a "gotcha" is silly.

    It helps incentivize the collaborative aspect of the game. Most people seem to agree that asking "Can you faction field Hidden Deployment?" is a valid question. But if you ban army, why now ban answering these kinds of questions?

    If you decide to still have an etiquette where answering these questions, but not using Army is okay, you end up in a position where asking questions to an inexperienced player potentially gives you tells about the content of their Army, rather than just consulting Army to answer your questions.

    It is also extremely hard to enforce from a TO point of view, especially in a digital era.

    - - - - -

    I personally see very little benefit to preventing the use of Army, but a lot of very serious hinderance.

    The only thing Army tells you is information that you could have even outside of the game. They're information that are completely seperate from the game state.

    I think most people who are against using army are simply annoyed that they can't bully a player that doesn't know the point cost of a Fusilier in a quadrant to squeeze out a win. Or that they don't know that their literal only valid LT is the only valid LT. Which is just silly in casual and a complete joke of a "strategy" in a competitive setting.
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This. And, again, the app has an order and casualty tracking functionality, who thinks that it shouldn't be used during play?
     
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  10. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    Then why ban using Army during games? If the truly reprehensible use of Army during a game is using it to completely reconstruct your opponent's list to help deduce what might be in HD or AD or hidden with camo markers, why not draw the line there with your house rules?
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I already answered that. I think the game should be designed around a focus on being fun. It's a recreational game, not a competitive sport. The game being full of surprises, not solved situations, is a big factor that keeps it a fresh and fun experience.

    Players making unforced errors leads to the same match ups between the same players playing out differently. You average player constantly plays differently, for despite knowing many things, they are not able to recall everything with perfect clarity at any given moment and they will make mistakes. This is true even for the best of players in any game system, saw it happen to even the best of Warmachine, and Guild Ball too now that I think of it.
     
    #251 Triumph, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
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  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I would appreciate the discussion to calm down, thanks.
     
  13. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I don't know if things like "gotcha, you didn't know my fusilier was 10 points" is part of unsolved, fun situations.

    I personally think that unsolvability is very good, and it turns out that the rules of listbuilding actually lets you do that. Take hidden deployment, take AD, take camo, take multiple possible LTs.

    How you create that unsolvability and that uncertainty is up to the player building the list. Listbuilding sensible stuff and uncertainty is an actual skill you can develop and you can actually trick people with it, regardless of whether or not the use Army.

    "Unsolvability" where the only time you get an upside is based on player inexperience of the faction listings is terribly uninteresting from both casual and competitive standpoint in my opinion.

    - - - - -

    This entire scenario seems like the only "upside" of preventing people from using Army, but it comes with many negative aspects (which I listed earlier).

    It's up to the community to figure out how they enjoy playing the game, but hopefully they take everything into consideration.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    More like, "I know you know that my unit costs 3 point less than yours so I know you know that you don't need to attack this unit because it's not scoring, so I know you know that you can just come and hammer my more important things that are located elsewhere, so you know that I know that I have to focus my defenses there instead."

    That's indeed all tactically sound reasoning from both parties. It also ruins any fucking suspense there is in the game's strategic decision making when everything is out in the open like that.
     
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  15. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    If you want to add uncertainty to a quadrant, bring a camo, bring a holo echo, use a trooper that can be different profiles based on their open information.

    Put the uncertainty and the unsolvability of a list in the hand of the person that creates the list, not in the hand of the opponent's inexperience.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The idea is that the game is naturally in that state, not requiring players to build custom lists just to prevent match ups from getting stale.


    I'm not sure if it was clear, the use of army isn't banned. People use it all the time to manage their own lists. Using it to look up their opponents stuff is what's not kosher.
     
  17. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    It's only in that state if your opponent is inexperienced.

    Widening the gap of player inexperience is the only 'upside" of banning a tool like Army during the game. If that's a thing that your meta enjoy, by all means.

    But consider the multiple downsides of banning such a tool when making that decision. (I listed many of them a couple of pages ago)
     
  18. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    And by doing this you stop infringing on other players freedom to know things about the game to protect your private information. It's much better and actually enforceable this way.
     
  19. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    It's enforceable.

    It makes hiding information be a thing that rewards experience rather than punish lack of experience.

    It incentivise collaboration. (Why would I answer any of my opponent's question if we make the ruleset not want to answer it for them in the first place?)

    It makes the game be based more around your tactical decisions than hoping your opponent lacks trivia-like knowledge of informations that are independant of the game state.

    - - - - -

    I can understand why some people would enjoy playing it one way or another, but if you're organising an event with people from different meta, I think considering all the aspects is very important.
     
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  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's in that state even if your opponent is experienced. Even the literal best of players do not recall everything with perfect clarity under pressure, as I keep saying I have experienced this first hand. Pretending that these players are absolutely infallible is just pure fantasy and hero worship.

    It's actually the complete opposite but certain people want to keep pretending otherwise because it's actually a much bigger advantage for them. A state of perfect information is more beneficial to better players than it is to weaker ones. You give a weak player perfect information they won't know what can be done with it, you give a stronger motivated player perfect information they'll know to look up hidden units, costs of currently scoring units, copying profiles etc.

    Again, pretending this is all for the benefit of new or weaker players is plain bullshit. Anybody with half a brain can tell you who will actually benefit the most out of abusing the army app in the middle of a game to uncover private info.

    It only closes the gap between players if you actually turn it into a handicap system where the weaker player gets to use army while the stronger one doesn't, and hey, wait a minute, that's exactly what we do to help new players.
     
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