Private information: Cost and SWC

This is a long term discussion point.

Mostly I've found people think:
1. The SWC and Price of a Trooper is Private Information
2. The SWC and Price of a profile is widely available and anyone can access it
3. Some players can list build effectively in their heads
3. Time wasting is rude

This means that rebuilding your opponent's list at the table is valid (even using online tools), but likely to be rude unless you can do it quickly enough to not interfere with the flow of the game.

 

I didn't guess.

Literally the only reason this gets discussed is because someone goes "can my opponent use Army to recreate my list during the game?"

But trying to argue that the fact a Zero Minelayer is 20pts / 0.5 SWC is Private Information is laughable.

What the rule is meant to prevent is being forced to answer the variations of the question "how many points/SWC do you have deployed/in that zone?"

The easier example of the same principle is Lts:
- the fact that there are only 5 legal Lt profiles in Tunguska is just a fact
- the fact that I have an Interventor with a Combi Rifle on the table is Open Information
- the fact that that Interventor is my Lt is Private Information.

 

There is no official ruling on this and it's treated differently depending on where you play like playing with or without intent is. Talk to your group and figure out how you want to play with it.

For me personally, my meta considers it cheating to use army to access private information for the purposes of things like figuring out how many points are in a zone to make strategic decisions.

 

Again that varies from group to group. For me, yes, bad form to do that, for other places, business as usual.

 

In my meta we generally assume that our opponents know the options. In a casual game I'll happily tell my opponent what the options are, occasionally even going "there's only one Lt option in this list, it's the Interventor" particularly if asked.

In a tournament I won't, but have no issue with an opponent who's not sure checking. How they use their time doesn't worry me. It's only when it impacts the pace of the game I'd have issues a simple "dude, play the game, check Army afterwards" would solve it.

The issue isn't checking widely available information but any impact on timing.

 

Discussed extensively in this thread: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/public-lt-wip-is-making-them-too-obvious.39145/page-2

It's not. The rules are completely clear. Anyone who bans checking Army during a game is imposing a house rule.

Pretty much, yeah. It would be a house rule, but TOs are allowed to impose house rules in their events. Kind of a dumb house rule, but I suppose if the meta had a problem with people wasting game time messing around in Army, that would be one way to solve it.

 

Right, the same way that anyone imposing -any- sportsmanship or outside considerations on the game (like telling someone to stop looking at the other player’s list) is imposing a house rule. :-/

 

Wait, why would it be bad if a player looks at another players list? Not even talking about sportsman like conduct but, theirs gonna be real time aerial recon of any battle being parsed through super computers running information compared to every past recorded battle. Any troop that's visible on the battle field is gonna be analyzed and reported to the force on the ground just like we do today with UAVs but better. Using quantum computing with knowledge a government has about the capabilities of another government, they'll be able to report the possibility of a hidden deployment, holomask, impersonation or drop troop.

 

"Private Information is information you can keep to yourself that your opponent cannot ask about. Your Private Information remains secret until a specific game event forces you to disclose it."

Looking at the sheet of paper on which your opponent keeps their Private Information would be cheating.

The "looking at Army" question keeps coming up because of a few players who believe that because they don't have to disclose their Private Information, their opponent isn't allowed to deduce it from the information legitimately available to them. That reading has been thoroughly debunked, over and over, most recently in the thread I linked above. There would be no point rehashing the reasons yet again.

 

The Kappa in the original question is a good example to use.

Whether you paid 0 or 1 SWC for your Kappa is private information.
The fact that a Kappa costs 12 points and either 0 or 1 SWC (depending on if it's the lieutenant) is open information.
Some players consider it bad form to open up Army to check the points/SWC cost of it, but there's no rule against it.
Some (more than the previous point) players consider it bad form to make your opponent's entire list in Army to see if they have the SWC leftover to spend the 1 for that Kappa to be their lieutenant, but there's no rule against it.

 

And a single camo marker or holomask will making solving this impossible anyway.

 

Err, well, let me speak specifically then. I wasnt implying looking at hidden info, but a courtesy list... unless is that no longer a thing? Also, I'm have trouble finding a print list option in the army app on android? Am I missing something here?

 

Oh, yeah, for sure you can look at the courtesy list. That's what it's for - it's a list of all the information on the army list except the Private Information. Printing it It's the happy face button on the browser version of Army. I haven't checked the Android app version.

 

Okay so everything is the same as before. I believe that is what the OP has been describing all along. The courtesy list may not have cost and SWC but a good player probably knows so as long as a lesser player doesnt take up too much time, I'm not opposed to them building the list on their app. As above, I'd equate this to to aerial surveillance and quantum computing data from past conflicts. That being said, the amount of time, I'd allow for this is probably 3 minutes. That's enough time to rebuild my list adding in the Lt version of every model I have that could be the Lt. Like a Spitfire Domaru and Oyoroi on the table, I would just add the Lt version for each instead of the version that's not, then as we're playing if the my opponent can figure it out, good for them. Or if they figure I'm missing roughly 35 points vs 60 and how many models and markers i have on the table. How many ninja/oniwaban I'd have. If a good player can do this mentally, I'm not gonna deprive an average player, I'm just gonna tell them "here's my list, you got 3 minutes to reconstruct it in your app, then we're kicking this thing off"!