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Post Daedalus Fall List Talk

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by borings, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    That's his lieutenant, mate - probably best to suggest the full change you recommend based on that.

    I actually quite like the list but I think I'd almost downgrade a Kaurii to another Chaksa and use the points to upgrade a Gao-Rael to a spitfire. However it depends on what local circumstances are like. Saitan noted that he thought MSV was essential due to local meta, which if that means something like warband spam probably necessitates keeping the sniper.

    This is also a small touch, but @Saitan247 I appreciate that you've mixed the weapons on the makauls. That's the sort of thing that doesn't matter for three games in a row then suddenly becomes critical because someone's bought an ARM3 BTS9 Asawira and suddenly the versatility really matters. Nice.
     
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  2. Saitan247

    Saitan247 Active Member

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    Thank you, I also thought about this but I thought one more specialist for the missions is better.
     
  3. Saitan247

    Saitan247 Active Member

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    Thank you :)
     
  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    It's a Tohaa list with a Kaeltar, all he would really need to do is swap one Makaul for a Kamael Lt tbh, or drop whatever and add a Sakiel lt if he wants the extra survivability. I find it really hard to justify the last two Makauls in group 1, so that's where the points can come from. I think a triple Makaul triad is viable, but usually I would shove it in group 2 with 5-6 orders to just smoke up the table.

    The Gao-Rael spitfire is also a really natural match for the Draal in a triad since it can leverage the Stratuscloud advantages with its high burst and MSV2.

    I'll add my take on the list in moment, I'm on mobile and am looking back and forth between pages.

    E Alpha
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    DRAAL Submachine Gun, Pulzar, D-Charges, Dazer / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    GAO-RAEL Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 33)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    KRIIGEL Submachine Gun, Phero-Booster / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    KAMAEL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    DIPLOMATIC DELEGATE (iKohl L1, Specialist Operative) Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    4.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I rearranged the groups, dropped the Taagma as he benefit of counterintel drops a lot when you're playing 16+ orders, added swc pieces to both groups, and set up triads in ways that are more evenly balanced. 16 orders with a a couple of decent shooters is going to do a lot more work than 18 orders without any ability to move around the table besides eclipse smoke (and it's not like this list gives up a lot of eclipse, it just rearranges it.)

    You could optionally go for the Minelayer Draal (drop the diplomatic delegate and just spend the other 4 points on whatever) since you're going to end up triading him with things that can't deal with a Dazer, and I also think in retrospect I would put the diplomatic delegate in group one since she's another specialist and I'm not going to want to run my triad that starts with the Kaeltar too far up the table.
     
    #124 meikyoushisui, Jun 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  5. Saitan247

    Saitan247 Active Member

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    Thank you for your post. I like the rearangement.

    To be honest, I still don´t see the benefit of the HMG over the LT FT in my meta. The tables here are really packed (besides maybe one or two cross table fire lanes for the Sniper) and I am kinda player that likes to come right in your face. Thats also something I want to keep the CC Triad with 3 Makauls and try them out. :) I like the Spitfire Gao Rael idea, maybe even more than the sniper option :)

    Nevertheless, I will try also you suggestions out and I really appreciate you effort.
     
    #125 Saitan247, Jun 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    We also play very dense (I'm from a state known for dense tables, and we play even denser local to me), and I've had a lot of success with the Draal AP Marksman Rifle option. Even very dense tables will still have ways to take advantage of the 8-24 inche range band, if less so the 16-32 band, so dropping the Sukeul HMG and Diplomatic delegate can buy you the Draal there. You also don't lose a specialist since he's a specialist too, and you get another Stratuscloud for clever cross-table Gao-Rael shots.
     
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  7. Saitan247

    Saitan247 Active Member

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    I can take only one draal in the builder :O
     
  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Oh shoot, I forgot he was only AVA1 in Vanilla. In that case, a Sakiel Spitfire could be the right choice, and it also buys you most of an extra order.
     
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  9. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    i agree with that assessment, for the most part. really depends on missions. swarm can be surprisingly effective with no guns.
     
  10. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    mind if i ask what about yer meta makes msv2 so necessary? i ask because i really find the gao rael to underperform in this sort of list. i mean, if anything i would drop the sukeul for it if you really want it, and make that yer Lt. i've personally found the taagma pretending to be a gao rael can be just about as effective as an actual gao rael tho
     
  11. OrderMonkey

    OrderMonkey Well-Known Member

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    I could use some help building a proper list for “The Grid“.
    I have no experience playing this mission whatsoever and I am not sure whether I will have the opportunity to play any test games, so I'd appreciate some constructive critique from more experienced players.

    So, here's what I've come up with so far:
    The Grid 2.0
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]4
    SUKEUL Lieutenant (Forward Observer) K1 Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    KAMAEL (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    DRAAL (Minelayer) AP Marksman Rifle, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Viral Pistol, Knife. (1 | 40)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    GREIF-OP (Inferior Impersonation) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 21)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR Smart Heavy Rocket Launcher / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 15)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)

    4.5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    Naturally, I want to go first with this list.
    The plan is to set up a solid midfield defence during the first round, not bothering to mark any Antennas there. I have plenty of mines to do so.
    As for the second round, the Triad of Kaeltar/Makaul/Makaul from the second combat group is supposed to destroy all three Antennas on my side of the table, at least two should be possible, though.
    The first combat group is then (hopefully) going to destroy more Antennas on the opponents side of the table than there are remaining on my side. This should lock up the game.
    I threw in a SHRL Chaksa for good measure, not too sure about it, though.

    As stated above already, I hope for some good advice from you guys! :)
     
    #131 OrderMonkey, Jun 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
  12. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    If you get first turn this list looks like fun but if you get second turn it probably will get hairy. You got nothing great defensive so best plan probably hiding stuff as well as possible. Not sure hows the terrain in your games but some TAG getting into your dz could kill quite a lot of your pieces first turn.
    Would take a krakot over the smart rocket launcher, its a better speed bumb in my eyes and comes kinda with two orders which is nice.
    Good luck, I havent played the grid yet either so not quite sure what would be best
     
  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Yeah, that's a basically perfect go-first Grid list. You might want to test and see how it performs going second, as Cho noted, but otherwise you have all the tools you need.
     
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  14. Saitan247

    Saitan247 Active Member

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    We have a lot of warbands here and smoke is always present. I just have a better feeling playing with a msv2 unit within my army.

    But I will test... I like the way of not having so much heavy guns and lure the opponent into bad decision. :)
     
  15. Saitan247

    Saitan247 Active Member

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    So I played my first game of Tohaa, I was really overhelmed by the abilities. All you guy said was true I really lacked some firepowert, but managed to win... Mission was Supplies.

    I amended the list:

    E Alpha
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    DRAAL (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Pulzar, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Viral Pistol, Knife. (1 | 31)
    GAO-RAEL Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 33)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]1
    SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    KRIIGEL Submachine Gun, Phero-Booster / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31)
    KAMAEL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    5.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army


    Special thx @meikyoushisui @RobertShepherd @borings

    Br
     
  16. Saitan247

    Saitan247 Active Member

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    So I played my second game. I play tested the new Alpha list and it was mission Acquisition and the opponent played TAK.

    He picked second turn which makes sense for the Mission. I took first turn. Since he was trying to get the last turn to fulfill the mission, my tactic was to destroy as much I can in my first turn.

    The Makaul triad went out throwing smoke supported by the Gao Triad. The makauls made it to his vet kazak link team and killed everything in cc (viral cc with burst 2 whoop whoop, had two in b2b) and with the flamethrowers.

    I pushed the rest of my army forward and put the kaaurii into suppressive fire.

    In his round a spetznas revealed and killed my Gao sniper... (maybe next time I will use a taagma to pretend a gao sniper, what do you guys think?) some movement by him an two kills (streloks) from my side. Maukaul triad died trough some tank hunter fire.

    My second round pushed Gao triad upfront. Dog pack revealed and killed, tank hunter killed. Got the middle packet secured.

    Pushed trough his side. And got in good position. Sukeul killed the spetznas.

    His round Los (Tankhunter was the lt) had only a couple orders and gave up.

    To sum up: really happy with the list. Will play the sh... out of this list. Like the movement. Eclipse smoke and the makauls are devastating... Gao spitfire is a beast. Kaauri a profile what is worth every point (12). Sukeul hmg all true you guys said.

    Gao sniper, hmm don’t really know...

    Sorry for the shortness... hope u liked it.

    Br
     
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  17. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    Yeah sounds like its working well for you. I think try it without any gao raels, and just be very aggressive, see if you like it. A full 20 order list with 6 makauls in it is a very hard thing for most opponents to outlast. At least try without the sniper. I really find for large order pools it works better to just have more guys with better maneuverability that you can bring in after the first wave dies in glorious combat. Also totally agree on the kaauri 12 jawns. Those guys are fire
     
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  18. Saitan247

    Saitan247 Active Member

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    Thx... actually I am working on a list without the sniper since the opponents find ways to deal with him and he has up to now not become valid for his points. I will use the Tagmaa to pretend the Gao Rael Sniper.

    I really like the spitfire one. Doing a lot of work. Something like this

    E Beta──────────────────────────────────────────────────GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]3
    DRAAL (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Pulzar, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Viral Pistol, Knife. (1 | 31)
    GAO-RAEL Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 33)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    SUKEUL Lieutenant (Forward Observer) K1 Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    DIPLOMATIC DELEGATE (iKohl L1, Specialist Operative) Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]1
    SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    KRIIGEL Submachine Gun, Phero-Booster / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    KAELTAR Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioBombs / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    TAAGMA Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16) 4.5 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    Br
     
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  19. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    yeh this list looks great. the kriigel with a sukeul hmg and makaul is prolly my new favorite triad. they just have so many options and answers
     
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  20. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I've found I like this a lot as well. I occasionally wish it had a specialist, but it's a small price to pay.