Alrighty lets try and break this done sequentially. I've noticed many people seem to have a very negative view of BS11 units no matter what else they seem to be equipped with. The main targets of the Grief should 100% be as I mentioned Camo troops. That being said, if for some reason the Greif finds itself having to fight up against a bolt I think you're undervaluing how effective it will be. Here is BSG Bolt Vs. Combi Rifle Mimetism Greif within 6" and both in cover. I will note of course that this is the optimal expected position for the the bolt. I'm not really sure why Move 4-4 is considered bad here. Its quite fast over all and when combined with FD2 it could take as little as 2 orders to get the Greif across the midfield and to your opponent's deployment zone. If the Greif was 4-2 or the Igao/Clipsos was 6-2 or faster I could understand the complaint. The clipsos is certainly good but the tools the Greif brings give it some really solid ground against camo. Check out how the Clipsos compares to a Greif when fighting something like the zero. It takes Surprise Shot AND TO to get close to the Greif. And ultimatley if your Clipsos is your button pusher is this where you want to be risking your resources? Greif vs. Zero Clipsos Vs. Zero You're right a Greif going second will have an issue compared to the clipsos. However when going second the Greif doesn't need to deploy as aggressively. Deploy 8 Inches up with nothing to cover your ass and yeah the Greif is left swinging in the wind but that's true of many troops. You still have lots of options in how you deploy and position. I haven't had the chance to try it with the Greif specifically but with some clever support you do have the potential to bait in enemy camo troops quite effectively. Get them coming in to try and clear the threat while they have decent options and then drop a few HD Clipsos shots out of nowhere on them. I think the Igao is one of the best units Tohaa has and use it quite regularly. This a good question. I wasn't sure so I started running some numbers back and forth to see if I could figure out where the Greif does and doesn't want to run into 5mans. Against general line troops with Combis in a 5 man the Greif is about a 50/50 on either one winning. Against stuff like a Sniper if you can get in that 0 range band its about the same. One of the more interesting things is that the Greif doesn't actually suffer a terrible fate at all against things like the Kamau MSR or the Dakini link. So In general yeah a 5 man isn't going to be your main target. But if you roll up, smack a TR bot in the face then turn and take a 50/50 on breaking that Kamau MSR? Sounds like a nice little investment to me. Well as I discussed you're actually pretty good against a unit like a bolt and a bolt is a lot better shooter than plenty of backfield troops. Here is a Greif Surprise shooting a Q-Dron HMG within 8" with both in cover. Looks like a solid win for the Greif to me. There is an argument to be made that if your opponent expects the Greif they may deploy in such a way that an attack run like this is impossible. I can't deny that but if 21pts and 1 swc make you completely change the way you deploy. I think I'm ok with that.