1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

POLL: Which Factions / Sectorals are the Weakest in Infinity?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Nisse2MeetU!, Sep 21, 2018.

?

Which Factions / Sectorals are the Weakest right now in Infinity?

  1. Vanilla Panoceania

    16 vote(s)
    15.2%
  2. ASA Shock Army

    1 vote(s)
    1.0%
  3. Military Orders

    21 vote(s)
    20.0%
  4. Neoterra

    6 vote(s)
    5.7%
  5. Vanilla Yu Jing

    11 vote(s)
    10.5%
  6. I.S.S.

    5 vote(s)
    4.8%
  7. Vanilla Ariadna

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Caledonian Highlander

    14 vote(s)
    13.3%
  9. FRRM

    31 vote(s)
    29.5%
  10. USAriadna

    7 vote(s)
    6.7%
  11. Tartary

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. Vanilla Nomads

    1 vote(s)
    1.0%
  13. Corregidor

    11 vote(s)
    10.5%
  14. Bakunin

    6 vote(s)
    5.7%
  15. Tunguska

    7 vote(s)
    6.7%
  16. Vanilla Haqqislam

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  17. Hassassin Bahram

    4 vote(s)
    3.8%
  18. Qapu Khalqi

    22 vote(s)
    21.0%
  19. Vanilla Combined Army

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  20. Morat

    40 vote(s)
    38.1%
  21. Onyx

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  22. Shasvastii

    31 vote(s)
    29.5%
  23. Vanilla Aleph

    1 vote(s)
    1.0%
  24. Steel Phalanx

    2 vote(s)
    1.9%
  25. O.S.S.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  26. Tohaa

    1 vote(s)
    1.0%
  27. J.S.A

    5 vote(s)
    4.8%
  28. Druze

    26 vote(s)
    24.8%
  29. Ikari

    3 vote(s)
    2.9%
  30. Starco

    1 vote(s)
    1.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    5,384
    I don't agree that Infinity is a game where a good player is required to make the weaker factions work.

    Some factions and Sectorals are more difficult to make work because they require a bit more finesse, and some factions and Sectorals reward any given player more based on their personal playstyle. But I don't believe that some are outright on paper objectively stronger or weaker than others. And if they are, tell me what they are and tell me why? People say ISS is "top tier." Why? What does ISS do that is so great that makes it "better" than, say, Corregidor?

    Like I'm going to say it again, and I really mean it; all of them and none of them. It's actually a really well balanced game, IMO, to the point where to draw an actual tier system seems impossible to me. The real challenge in Infinity is the mind of the other player.
     
    Deltervees, loricus and TheDiceAbide like this.
  2. armazingerz

    armazingerz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    198
    The skill ceiling is not the same for every player, each player has its own skill ceiling. In a game so complex, the most of the players can't afford the time to reach their skill ceiling.

    I don't think Brood Wars is a good example about balance, there were like two balance patches, they really nailed it at the first shot. Besides, Brood Wars was more a national sport than a simple game, you could watch sc games elsewhere on the TV, it made sense to balance the game at that skill level. That's not the case of Infinity.
     
  3. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    2,804
    This is not how I've ever seen the term used. Skill ceiling in competitive games refers to the highest attainable skill for a character or faction, it has nothing to do with the players.
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    9,666
    Agreed, there seems to be a lot more faction loyalty in Infinity than in 40k. As to whether that's due to appearance or due to fluff is a different argument altogether.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    @meikyoushisui @armazingerz If a faction is under-performing at high-level play (be it Interplanetario or Blizzard Invitational) but over-performing at low-level play (be it during the Beasts of War events or in Gold league), there is an argument to be made that you need to look at which mechanism involved in the faction is difficult to play with or against and make adjustments to reduce the skill level involved in using or dealing with such an ability.
    As an example, from the limited data I have, it seems Tohaa is always punching over their weight at the nominal "low-level" play we have (typically being the only faction with a clearly higher win rate compared to losses), so perhaps they need to have some of their key abilities be a bit harder to achieve effect from or a bit easier to disable for opponents? What if everyone's favourite hate-object required you to nominate its use prior to rolling dice during the order?

    I have opinions about the current state of Starcraft, but that's off topic so let's avoid meta-discussion about that, shall we? Starcraft is a good comparison tool, however, since Blizzard is actively trying to get the balance perfect enough that the game experiences meta-shifts from people figuring out counters to the current "best build" instead of "best builds" being shifted by patches. (And by computer game life cycles, Starcraft 2 should be dead by now)
    As an Infinity comparison to this; Assault Hacking Devices as a tool has nearly died because CB "patched" in Killer Hacking Devices, but we have only blunt tools for dealing with Killer Hacking Devices meaning we have little opportunity for a meta-shift to a state where Killer Hacking Devices gets shunned and Assault Hacking Devices become a "tech shift".
    These meta-shifting mechanics can be subtle, and it's possible the shift potential is already there, but as far as I can tell Killer Hacking Devices are cheap enough and still useful in a no-hacker match, that there's no real drawback to them. If, for instance, White Hacking Devices got a bit more common and there was a Hacking Program that effectively said "This program may target friendly troopers during an ARO; prevent any damage to wounds or structure that would be dealt due to Hacking Programs during this order" and suddenly we might start seeing shifts.
     
    eciu, ijw and Stiopa like this.
  6. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,238
    Likes Received:
    9,557
    @Mahtamori: I feel like your description of the balance issue is on point. I'd add, that another factor is that natural AHD targets - HIs and TAGs - are often seen as uncompetetive choices and a waste of resources, so they're seeing less table time, which in turn makes AHD unnecesary - especially given that other counters exist. So there's no downside to ditching AHD and taking some AP weapon instead. There's simply no need for one, and what need there is can be adressed by other means.

    To compare, we still use standard HDs, because of their Supportware - for which they are the only source.

    Easy fix would be to make KHDs cost 0.5 SWC as usual, and make them incapable of unlocking remotes. Still useful, still powerful, no longer one-HD-to-rule-them-all.
     
    Punkow likes this.
  7. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,164
    Likes Received:
    2,836
    It would not actually solve anything, as AHDs were bad even before KHDs. You just saw more of them because a bunch of units had them as the only specialist option.

    Don't forget that all HDs, and especially noticeable at the high-cost AHDs, have a large flaw in that there are 2 factions in game that will almost never have anything to hack, and most factions will have only a few rare targets at most.
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  8. Punkow

    Punkow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    25
    THIS.

    Also, I would remove their ability to ignore firewalls. Killer Hacking devices are so cheap that they are the go-to equipment of many infiltrating specialists. This means that being a hacker is often a serious liability instead of being a bonus, especially if you happen to have many repeaters (and if you want to play a remote-heavy list you WILL have many repeaters). An example of this is Zoe, which is a very cool concept for a trooper but is nowadays ditched in favour of the Clockmaker, simply because the clockmaker cannot be redrumed.
     
    Stiopa likes this.
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Thank you, you're touching on another approach to achieving balance, and that's making the incentive to use an ability that's under-performing to make the risk of, in this case, running into a KHD worth it.

    If TAGs and HI were collectively so powerful that AHDs were needed to reliably speed-bump them (we're not necessarily talking about much, it might be enough that the Hackable Trait's innate discount increased by 5 or some of any number of ways to make the hackable troop types more cost effective compared to the non-hackable ones), then AHDs would still be really weak compared to KHDs, but you'd still need them sufficiently that that could be worth it.
    Of course, that'd still mean that (going back to general case again) the ability in question you want to bolster would need to be available to all factions in sufficient quantity to make a dent or to allow factions with low or no access to it have other, possibly unique, ways of dealing with an increased threat (which in case of making HI+TAG more cost effective might mean making AP weapons commonly available to Tohaa and Ariadna at dirty cheap, or making E/Marat the new Fire special ammo for Tohaa, etc.)
     
    Punkow, eciu and Stiopa like this.
  10. Whaleofforum

    Whaleofforum Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2018
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    246
    Completely inaccurate.
     
  11. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    712
    Likes Received:
    855
    How so? Skill ceiling is never so subjective as being related to individuals attempting to reach it. There would be no reason to discuss skill ceilings if they differed from individual to individual. A skill ceiling is defined based entirely on the activity in question. In games, the ceiling is set by the designers. Designers rarely, if ever, get to set it at will but the ceiling exists where it does solely based on mechanics inherent to the game. Meikyoushisui's statement is entirely accurate.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Since we're discussing balance, let's sort that terminology out.

    Skill floor is how effective a faction/character is as a beginner.

    Skill ceiling is how effective a faction/character can be when played to its limits, and any extra player skill is wasted potential.

    Ideally you want these distinguishable and the latter to be attainable (which isn't the same as "height"). Additionally you don't want any faction/character to have a ceiling significantly higher than others. An "easy" faction/character has very little difference between floor and ceiling, an "op" faction either has a really high ceiling or a really high floor compared to the reference point the complainer has.

    Infinity's rule set forces floor and ceiling apart something fierce regardless of what faction or unit we're talking about (except maybe the specific case of humans' minesweeper REMs where ceiling is ankle-high), since you never see anyone suggesting a faction to be "easy" without having a massive terms and conditions applied to that description.

    Edit: on reflection, skill ceiling is impossible to attain in most things, but attaining a skill plateau is possible and that's where the masters exist

    (LoL community apparently tends to use skill floor as what can be described as "barrier to entry")
     
    #112 Mahtamori, Sep 26, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
    Xeurian and Abrilete like this.
  13. Whaleofforum

    Whaleofforum Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2018
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    246
    2 things:

    It is not substantive or cool to the discussion to take a clear statement and nitpick semantics when the meaning is clear.

    Maybe you are part of insular communities like DoTA or something where the definition is confined, but a skill ceiling is used to describe players' skills often in gaming as well as sports, music.
     
  14. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    712
    Likes Received:
    855
    We can only both be guilty of that if either of us are. I don't understand your thrust with this statement.

    I'm coming from gaming at large and discussing or contrasting (mostly video) games in general. Be that first person shooters, strategy games, fighting games, board games or table top games, discussed through online forums or written about in journalism, this is how I have almost exclusively seen the term used within these contexts. I grant that there may be instances in which an individual may want to discus their own perceived skill cap, but in cases I have experienced they would always have to be clear enough so as to not be confused with attempting to discuss their experience with the skill cap of the activity itself.
     
    #114 Xeurian, Sep 26, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
    Whaleofforum likes this.
  15. Punkow

    Punkow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    25
    I really think you are right. There is currently some imbalance between elements of the game rather than between factions.
    I would like to add that in my very humble opinion, this is exacerbated by the fact that many abilities have proliferated.
    I mean that many equipments and skills that used to be restricted to a limited number of units are now evwrywhere. For example, in respect to when I started playing:
    - smoke is everywhere (well, except PanO)
    - Shock is everywhere, (making NWI an increasingly less valuable skill)
    - fireteams are so prevalent that you can reasonably expect that many key units of your opponent will have SS2
    - special deployment rules are everywhere

    And I could go on... furthermore the amount of rules available have skyrocketed so that almost everything has a hard counter somewhere.

    This is not inherently bad but it makes increasingly difficult to achieve internal balance for the game designers.

    The rules bloat is serious now and I believe that we are ready for N4, to streamline the absurd amount of clunky rules that we have.
     
    Mahtamori likes this.
  16. armazingerz

    armazingerz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    198
    I would like to believe it so much. Quite the opposite, CB seems interested in launch more rules and more factions instead of fixing everything.
     
  17. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,299
    Likes Received:
    7,519
    I think your post has merit, but I get wary any time I see the phrase "hard counter" applied in Infinity.

    Nothing in Infinity is a Hard Counter. Infinity is inherently designed around soft counters.

    Even units or equipment that we generally thinking of "countering" something else (MSV vs Camo, Killer Hackers to Assault hackers, etc.) are definitively soft counters. One of the reasons why Infinity has strong external balance is because the system is not predicated on Hard Counters.
     
    Punkow, Ben Kenobi, loricus and 3 others like this.
  18. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    5,384
    Yeah, MSV2 isn't a hard counter vs. camo, if it was it would reliably defeat it every time. But if someone has a Deva Spitfire and I attack them with a Spekr Combi-Rifle, then I'm still almost certainly going to win the firefight. Hard counters almost don't exist in Infinity.

    The closest you probably get to it is that a KHD will almost always beat the majority of AHDs and HDs in a ftf, which is something that a lot of people really don't like and think needs to be changed with a rebalancing of hacking! And even then an Oblivion ARO means that you stand a chance of preventing it happening again.
     
  19. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    445
    Wait, has it been worked out that hackable provides a discount?

    Looking at naturally two troops, such as Tariq and wulvers, my inclination was towards no. Similar to how manned vs rem presence provides no net points shift.
     
  20. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    2,804
    Hackable definitely has a discount.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation