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Poll: Should Engage be changed?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ghost, Apr 26, 2019.

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Should Engage be changed to make it a more viable or attractive ARO option?

  1. No, it's basically fine as it is.

    34 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. Yes, troops with CC special skills like MA or NBW should get a +3 mod to Engage.

    14 vote(s)
    16.5%
  3. Yes, as above but the +3 should be for FTF rolls only, not vs. Direct Templates.

    11 vote(s)
    12.9%
  4. Yes, all troops should use their CC attribute to Engage.

    12 vote(s)
    14.1%
  5. Yes, as above for FTF rolls only & continue to use PH vs. Direct Templates.

    3 vote(s)
    3.5%
  6. Yes, in some other way. (Please describe below.)

    11 vote(s)
    12.9%
  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but if you simply don't intentionally write it with quantum mechanics like they did with both Dodge and Engage and instead worked with the idea that Dodge needs a declared trajectory and, if close enough to touch the active model's movement path, that trajectory could be declared as attempting to become Engaged. Suddenly it's not any more complicated than appending Engage to Dodge. Because it is possible to Dodge through an enemy's movement trajectory just fine without touching, so there's no real argument that accidental Engage could even happen in N3.

    EFFECTS
    • Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.
    • This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...).
    • In the Active Turn, the Dodge Roll is compared to all attack AROs generated by the active trooper.
    • In the Reactive Turn, the Dodge Roll is compared to all Burst (B) attacks from all active enemies. For example, a reactive trooper could Dodge with a single Roll several shots from enemies using a Coordinated Order or all Close Combat attacks.
    • In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches.
    • Movement resulting from Dodging in Reactive Turn must follow the General Movement Rules as well as the Moving and measuring sidebar, both of which are explained in the Move Common Skill rules.
    • If this 2 inch movement touches the movement path of an enemy trooper, the Dodging model can also declare the active enemy trooper as the end point of the movement.
    • If the Roll is successful, then the user Dodges all Attacks against him and moves into base to base contact with his target at the final location previously declared by the target.
    • However, when entering base to base contact, the active trooper decides where around its base to place the reactive trooper.
    • If the target of this Dodge declares an Attack of any kind, including a CC Attack, against the user, and wins the Face to Face Roll, then the user receives all pertinent impacts and makes his ARM/BTSRolls without moving.
     
  2. FatherKnowsBest

    FatherKnowsBest Red Knight of Curmudgeon

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    Where's the option to remove Engage completely?
     
    Mahtamori likes this.
  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    If you're not close enough to reach the model you're Engaging, your attempt to Engage fails automatically.

    Engage has a range, people! If you're not within 2-4" (and 4" is the maximum even for doggos and motorcycles), you don't get to 'dodge' on your CC value, you can only Dodge on your PH.



    Exactly.

    Exactly.

    Because you could dodge into B2B, that would stop the Active model from moving farther (movement stops as soon as you are in B2B), and usually invalidated a couple other AROs due to the loss of LOF from movement. It was a giant can of worms.




    Still something to deal with.
     
    CoveredInFish likes this.
  4. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    Thinking about it, the backstory for Engage is helpful in one respect - it shows how poorly named this Common Skill is, at least in English.

    Most pertinent OED definition of engage: "(of fencers & swordsmen) bringing weapons together preparatory to fighting." Which just might lead someone to think that "fencers & swordsmen" (aka CC specialists) should be good at this.

    Perhaps the skill's name should just be changed to "Special Dodge 2: the one without +3 to PH." (Because as we all know, allowing troops to Dodge FTF rolls on PH +3 would completely break Infinity!)
     
    emperorsaistone likes this.
  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    They are usually good at the engage roll, they usually have higher PH.
     
  6. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    To add to the other reasons mentioned: You put pressure on the attacker by not just trying to avoid the attack, but counter-attacking.

    Even in RPGs the PCs are usually much better (at fighting) than the average joe.

    Yeah, like it is the job of a bouncer. It's just realistic.

    Yeah, you should be able to treat unconscious models just like scenery, allowing to vault over them if you aren't smaller.

    If you choose to engage, then you should be able to choose the path and final location of that movement. Putting some engaging model in the open or behind you is not just unrealistic but often makes it tactically worse than dodging. I guess that is why it isn't used that often.
     
  7. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Physics isn't fighting, that's BS and CC. And there are they much better.
     
  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Oniwaban are PH12. So are Hulang. And those are two of the most dangerous CC units that aren't characters!

    How is that 'good' or 'higher'? Higher than a PH10 Light Infantry, maybe, but it's lower than most HI.
     
  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    It's higher than most light and medium infantry, exactly. Plus they're at - 6 to be shot at. I'm not saying that engage is a super powerful ARO just that it's as strong as it needs to be! Oniwaban don't need to be any better! They're already pretty fucking awesome! The Engage rule is there to solve Dodge rules tangles. So basically a better question is "should you use your CC to dodge, and/or get a bonus to your roll, if you're within dodge range of btb with the enemy?" Emphatically I say: absolutely not.
     
  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    First note that I have not voted, nor have I picked a "side" in this fight. I do, however, want to point out that the problem (I think) people are complaining about isn't that a PH12 dodge that gets you into B2B is bad odds (it's not great, frankly when going F2F, but whatever), it's that if you are in engage range, it's almost always better to just shoot the damn thing instead.

    Taking your Oniwaban as an example, you either have a BS or SMG in the +6/+3 range band respectively. I'd much rather roll BS11+6/3 with a chance to wound right then and there than roll PH12 with a chance to wound (maybe) later depending on what your opponent chooses to do with the rest of their turn. Note that the -6 to shoot is there irrespective of what the Oniwaban chooses to do.
     
    Space Ghost and Abrilete like this.
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    about half of all MI in the game are PH11. roughly a third of them are PH12. The remaining 1/6 are PH13.
     
  12. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    I have an option not included above.

    I like that Engage is a different skill IF AND ONLY IF it is really a different skill. Being able to enter in contact with the enemy doesn't feel enough (you could simply melt down Dodge and Engage as @Mahtamori did up there without any difference in game).

    You should be able to apply your CC Mods to the Engage roll. Simply as that. +3/-3 for MA3, bonus for Protheion, no use against NBW and so on.

    Does this create some monster? Yes (Achille at 18 or 15 with 2 dice is the first that jumps to mind), but if you are SO CLOSE to those monsters, this is your last problem...
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just for the record, and this might sound weird, but I'm kind of equally on board with @FatherKnowsBest idea of simply removing Engage. I think either remove it or make it worthwhile, because right now the only real use is for models who don't really want to get into melee normally.

    Although removing the "including a CC attack" will also go a long way. Knifing an Engaging melee monster is stupid.
     
    FatherKnowsBest likes this.
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That is the same problem Assault often has too.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  15. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    This has been a great discussion! I think that if nothing else it shows that there's a wide divide in "the community" as to how important CC should be in Infinity. Thanks to everyone who voted and double thanks to everyone who commented!
     
    DFW Ike likes this.
  16. DarkPhoenixx

    DarkPhoenixx New Member

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    Late for the party, but I think they just need to make clarification that trooper declaring Engage is considered in B2B and can apply MA, NBW and other CC Special Skills (like I-Kohl does) to impose negative penalty to the opponent's roll, but positive modifiers would not apply since its not a CC but PH roll. I would imagine trained warrior can bob and weave while closing in, throwing off enemy's aim for a short distance.
     
    #76 DarkPhoenixx, Jul 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019