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Poll: Should Engage be changed?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ghost, Apr 26, 2019.

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Should Engage be changed to make it a more viable or attractive ARO option?

  1. No, it's basically fine as it is.

    34 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. Yes, troops with CC special skills like MA or NBW should get a +3 mod to Engage.

    14 vote(s)
    16.5%
  3. Yes, as above but the +3 should be for FTF rolls only, not vs. Direct Templates.

    11 vote(s)
    12.9%
  4. Yes, all troops should use their CC attribute to Engage.

    12 vote(s)
    14.1%
  5. Yes, as above for FTF rolls only & continue to use PH vs. Direct Templates.

    3 vote(s)
    3.5%
  6. Yes, in some other way. (Please describe below.)

    11 vote(s)
    12.9%
  1. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    This poll is a follow up to my recent "Using CC for Engage" post. It's not intended to rehash the (very interesting IMO) replies to that proposal, but simply collect some data from the community on this topic - especially from the "silent majority" who didn't comment one way or another on the original post.

    If you have an opinion, please take a second to click on the option you most prefer.

    Special thanks to CoveredInFish (who first suggested the very elegant idea of giving CC special skills like MA or NBW a +3 to Engage) and Mahtamori (who crunched a lot of theoretical numbers on how these options might play out.)

    P.S. I didn't include an option for nerfing Engage because I've never heard anyone voice that opinion. But if you think that's what's needed, feel free to vote "No" and add a reply explaining why/how it should be nerfed.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to vote for the option "Yes, troops with CC Special Skills like MA or NBW should provide their MODs to the roll or Face to Face"
    A straight up +3 for any level of MA, NBE, Berserk, etc etc, I find uninspiring. Let Domaru Engage on PH+9 normal rolls!
     
    Kiwi Steve likes this.
  3. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    That's what the last poll option is for, so feel free to click on that one and consider your opinion counted!
     
  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    What's the context? A mid-edition rules change (with or without units being updated accordingly), a new edition where it's built in to the system?
     
  5. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it needs a new edition: we get new rules without new editions all the time (new Sectorials, Full Auto, Symbiomates, FAQ).
     
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  6. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    Pick whichever context you prefer - like most polls this is largely wishlisting. Though in the case of CB, perhaps there's a side order of "maybe they're listening." So if you want to think of this as a possible special rule for the next ITS season, go for it. But if you'd rather think of this as a part of the inevitable N4, that's fine too. And anywhere in between is also fine, as is adding a reply to explain the context of your vote - just express your opinion as you see fit!
     
    #6 Space Ghost, Apr 27, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
  7. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see my preferred option.
    Engage should be eliminated and rolled into dodge.
     
  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think it's clear that Engage sucks right now between being attached to a low burst expensive stat and the active player being in charge of model placement, and no matter what option we pick here, we probably couldn't make the situation drastically worse.

    So change it CB.

    Infinity has a living rules set. Just make a change when one of the quarterly FAQs drop.
     
    Wolf likes this.
  9. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    Why not just give out hyper dynamics? CB's already shown a willingness to use PH as a dump stat and then use it bring dodge chance back up (Mary Problems, puppet bots). And because it isnt tied to MA, you can tailor which profiles get it easier.
     
    Ben Kenobi and Wolf like this.
  10. micawber

    micawber Member

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    Yes to cc as the engage stat but I'd argue it should be part of a bigger rework of cc.
    Bring the stat more in line with other attributes and detach Stealth and Courage from MA. That would help with the "cc is overcosted" issue. To compensate CB could add burst +1 to all levels of Martial Arts to show the clear difference in skill between troops specialized in melee and those who are not.

    From there you can flavour the different levels of MA with interesting boni. Those may include swapping burst for a huge cc bonus for a higher crit-chance, a +3 for engages or some of the existing MA1-5 boni.

    If we're talking about a huge rule rework we could even talk stuff like some visors/skills imposing a dodge/engage malus to make them more valuable and interesting.
     
    Mahtamori likes this.
  11. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    I've voted no, cause all of the martial arts units have already an above average physics.
    From a fluff point, CC isn't the ability to engage rather then fight.
    Physics is the right attribute and as @jimbo slice mentioned, we already have hyper dynamic.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  12. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    I'd generally like Close Combat to be a more effective and more significant part of the game. Although the standard CC Burst of only 1 is probably about right for standard units, I'd like to see units that do have a decent CC attribute also having increased Burst bonuses, perhaps automatically Martial Arts L4.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think Engage should be changed, but only in the context of a major rules revision.

    Honestly what I'd like to see is the PH stat split up into "Agility" and "Brawn" so that a trooper could have a high Agility (and thus be great at dodging and engaging) without being insanely powerful in cc. This would probably eliminate the need for the Hyper-Dynamics skill as well as the dodge penalties on remotes and TAGs; just give those troopers higher or lower agility.

    In a similar vein, I'd love to see WIP get broken up into "Smarts" and "Guts."
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Most of them have similar PH to what units you'll typically spend orders on have BS - 12 or 13. Same as Infiltrators. 13 seems to be the gold standard outside of Yu Jing and that's not too bloody high.

    Except Kanren and Pheasant, of course. They have 10. Aida has 11.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    No they don't. Many units have average or below average PH for their unit type despite having Martial Arts. I have PH10 Martial Artists. Please explain where you're getting this idea from.
     
  16. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Average is 10, so therefore it's above average.

    Think, you are playing Yu Jing. Those two profiles seem to be more officers then martial arts fighter, therefore that's perhaps legit, but I think PH 11 would suit them better. But that's not a problem of MA or Engage but the profiles themselves.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think you're confusing "lowest" with "average". Even Pan-O has significantly more non-REMs profiles with 11+ than than 10. I don't think there are any soldiers with 9 or lower. You'll be hard pressed to make an argument that 12 is very good for something that's exclusively burst 1 with no positive MODs available (except for a rare skills)

    Kanren is the lowest ranking Judicial member in ISS, I think technically lower than Celestial Guards. They're undercover assassins and spies. Pheasants are special agents and the closest you'll get to an FBI agent or special forces that the US/France/whatever sends to conflict zones to train local military. They are also the lowest ranking agent in ISS, their role is diverse and includes training special forces in martial arts, advising officers, and performing counter-insurgency action. They're officers in the same way as a Navy Seal is an officer. Or in the same way as a Knight Templar is an officer if you prefer an Infinity example.
     
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  18. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    No, warbands are already very strong
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    10 is not the average, 10 is the lowest for these units. These are not shitty line infantry they all cost above 20 points.

    Pheasants are elite LI. They pack MA2 with CC22 and DA CCWs, they are geared for CC yet are Martial Artists with PH10

    Most of the bog standard boring HI types like Brigada and ORCs are PH14. Of my 3 Martial Artist HI only the Hsien matches that. The Crane is 13 and the Hulang is 12.

    Skirmishers are normally 11-13. Look at Nomads, they have 5 SK profiles, 2 of those have MA, all of which are 11-13 for PH. The same is true for Haqq, all SK profiles are 11-13 with and without MA. The same is true for Pan-O both SK profiles are PH12

    Kanren have Martial Arts and are 10.

    You need to reevaluate your argument because it's clearly wrong. Of all the MA profiles in YJ only the Monks Ninjas and Hsien are at their normal PH level. PH and MA do not always go hand in hand when CB is making models.

    Kanren are not officers, they're field agents who go undercover you might as well claim a Fiday is an officer. The same goes for Pheasant Agents. It's in the name, they're not officers they're field agents. Saladin is an example of an officer type model, Pheasants are still expected to mix in with operations they're only middle management.


    People who are walking within engage range to try to clear out warbands packing martial arts and chain rifles are going to get dunked on regardless of how overpowered warbands may or may not be. They're just making stupid tier plays. I regularly run 8 warbands in a list, people don't go that close to monks or Kuang Shi without being a similar tier of disposable, 9/10 times these models get attacked from outside of chain rifle range because, guess what, nobody likes auto hits to the face.

    Even when you're a big dick ARM5 Kriza Borac walking into Chain Rifle range to kill 5 pt warbands is just pure idiocy. You're inviting a 40% chance to straight up eat a wound all for the sake of killing a 5pt disposable warband model. You wanna try that trick 8 times on my assortment of Monks and Kuang Shi? You're gonna kill off your army pretty goddamn quick doing that.
     
    #19 Triumph, Apr 28, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  20. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    After reading through the replies to this poll as well as my previous post, I've begun to wonder if folk's thoughts on Engage are tied to their overall opinions regarding Infinity's "CC game."

    On the one hand, several people have suggested that how CC is handled needs to be completely overhauled, presumably in N4. I have to admit that I'm in this camp, since (with rare exceptions) CC currently strikes me as an order-intensive sideshow. Yes, troops like Hussein Al-Djabel can make it work, but that's because he combines MA4 and a Viral CCW with Impersonation and Smoke Grenades. But for the vast majority of troops, the CC attribute and CC weapons are (IMO) just window dressing &/or a slight deterrent to being targeted by "CC specialists." So to me, it's a "no brainer" that Infinity's CC game needs a little love.

    But is it actually a no brainer? Are there players out there who think that overall, CC in Infinity is just fine as it is? Or perhaps that it's even gotten a little out of hand now, compared to say N2? For example, I've seen a few comments here and there from folks who lament how CC has now turned into "fishing for crits" (which I think is to some extent true.) So beyond Engage, if you also think that CC writ large in Infinity is just fine as is, please do post a word or two to that effect - if I get a few replies along those lines, I might just do another poll on the much more macro question of how CC should be handled in the next edition of Infinity.
     
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.