1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Playing Vanilla YJ - does it make sense fluff-wise?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Varsovian, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. Varsovian

    Varsovian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2018
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    234
    Okay, so I gave in and I bought myself a YJ army (because, you know, I don't have *enough* work with Haqqs, ALEPH, Nomads and JSA / Ikari... *rolls eyes*). I'd like to play vanilla YJ, using the troops I find cool... which would get me a team lead by a Crane, with Hsiens, Celestial Guards, Zhanyings - but also Zuyongs, Yan Huos etc. Which is, of course, the usual vanilla stuff, but...

    ... as I'm rather fluff-mindful and I like to immerse myself into the setting, I'm wondering: would this kind of line-up actually make sense from the background point of view? As far as I know, the ISS are a police force - while the IA are the military. Does it really make sense to make a team both with cops such as Celestial Guards and battlefield troopers such as Yan Huos? Is there some sort of justification for that?

    Or, maybe, I'm overthinking this... Hmm...
     
    AdmiralJCJF and BlackCadian like this.
  2. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    370
    There are Imperial Service personnel attached to the StateArmy troops, so I guess you can make a case for senior agents 'supervising' things?
     
  3. Paegis

    Paegis Vincible

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    75
    You could also fluff it as elements of the StateArmy being called in to support the ISS on a special operation. After all, pretty much every mission we play is technically a special circumstance black ops mission.
     
    AdmiralJCJF and Joametz like this.
  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    2,224
    Likes Received:
    1,707
    Yu Jing colonies on Paradiso have ISS as the first line of defense until the rest of the YJ army shows to reinforce. Especially in a city, you can have a mixed force defending it against the Combined.
     
  5. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2017
    Messages:
    480
    Likes Received:
    809
    With armies supposedly being a black ops team put together with the best they had nearby you can usually justify any mix of units. Also it might be that the IA are backing up an area with ISS units operating in the area or vice versa. In vanilla pano I'd take Joan alot and had a hard time why there were always 2 bounty hunters (miranda and generic) around lol. I would either justify it as they were basically paid scouts because they knew the layout of the land better or that they were in the area hunting the opponents HVT. It was extra flavorful when the bounty hunters would secure the HVT at the end of the game.
     
    BlackCadian likes this.
  6. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    618
    With Infinity mainly being about black ops you can get odd/eccentric group mixes. It can get a little more pulpy then how it's done in real life and some of that is carry over from Infinity's RPG days.

    Using the United State's special forces as an example you get joint operations that see all kind of units teaming up.

    Navy SEALs with Combat Controls and PJs from the USAF who are working with CIA SOG operators. Or Army Rangers working with Delta and the 160th SOAR (ie. Black Hawk Down).

    For YJ the ISS have some military police responsibilities. They even share resources from the main army of Yu Jing (the Wu Ming). It might be a joint operation between the IA and ISS or it might be some dirty dozen style grab who's available and get the mission done.
     
    BlackCadian likes this.
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,004
    Likes Received:
    9,435
    Fixed that for you.

    Compared to modern operations, Infinity is odd because we don't do anything smaller than a squad, and usually never do anything smaller than a company as a unit operating independently. So for the Bin Laden raid (which would actually make a pretty good Infinity mission!) for example, you had Army flying the helicopters (160th Special Ops Aviation Regiment), Navy SEALs in both the assault team and the quick-reaction forces standing by for rescuing the raid team if things went really bad, USAF Para-rescue for medevac support, USAF fighters, drones operated by someone (unclear, could be USAF, USArmy, or CIA), and even some Marine aviators on loan for electronic warfare support. There were something like 150 personnel directly involved in the raid, but only 12 went into the compound. 4 more SEALs, the dog and handler, and an interpreter were all on the perimeter (not counting the 8+ helicopter crew).

    In Infinity, it's (apparently) usual to have much smaller assignments, down to fire teams or individuals.
     
  8. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    181
    Likes Received:
    806
    Yeah, the main weirdness with any Infinity army comes down to them being more like a Dirty Dozen cell of elite operators with different origins than a modern military unit. In some ways, it is kind of like an RPG party than a military unit (with the cheerleaders being akin to old-school D&D henchmen). And given the game's origins, that makes a lot of sense (and certainly helps the RPG out a lot).

    In general, I assume Infinity missions are, like the much larger 40k battles, meant to be a micro-slice of the whole operation. Those 10-16 operators might be supported by a much larger network of folks who aren't inside the limited operating zone. But that still leaves you fielding a bunch of sliced-up units with attachments from half a dozen different branches of military and paramilitary organizations.

    In general, if Infinity was more "realistic" then army lists would be more like a bunch of themed micro-lists where you basically selected members of specific squad (with the possibility of some outside attachments, but likely quite limited) rather than cherry picking a bunch of different units from different outfits.

    Sort of like a CBU, but limited to a specific squad or military unit instead of just being a limited faction cross-section. Instead of White Banner, you might have a Zhanshi or Guilang Squad list. Instead of the Invincible Army, you might have a Zuyong, Haidao or Zhencha Squad list. And the lists would read more like a TO&E for the particular unit than the more diverse army lists we have these days. You'd have a limited number of slots, there would be certain roles to fill and each role would have choices between equipment presets. So for folks used to playing Tomorrow's War or Stargrunt II it would be pretty normal, but it is quite a bit different than what you find in most small skirmish games these days.

    Truth be told, I would love more in depth descriptions of Infinity military organization even if it isn't how the game is played at the table. Something akin to Osprey-style books outlining uniforms, squad composition, etc. would be fantastic from a world-building perspective. This is one thing I always appreciated about Heavy Gear back in the day. The extra details about regimental structure, squad composition, minor vehicle variants, and all the other extra depth it added made scenario and list-building so much more fun and rewarding.

    It is a shame that the RPG by design needs to focus more on non-wargame stuff and that the wargame tends to only give generic broad strokes to actual military organization with very few specifics. It means that unless the RPG specifically does some actual military-focused source books, we're unlikely to get a lot more depth of deeper military organization in the Sphere.

    It still kind of floors me that we still don't even know what, say, a typical Zhanshi (or Fusilier, or Ghulam, or ...) squad looks like after over a decade. I mean, I can probably work something up based on current PRC doctrine and some fudging (likely attached remotes as standard) but these are the kinds of extraneous details that really add to world-building in wargames and has sadly been missing from Infinity. Certainly it would beat yet another "X is the greatest unit in the world and can do backflips and don't afraid of anything" fluff blurbs we always get.
     
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,004
    Likes Received:
    9,435
    That would be really cool. Oooh, to piggyback that onto the idea for the painting guides as separate PDFs or whatever, add squad/platoon/company organizations to the painting guides!




    I'd been kicking that idea around, too, but it got really weird with Infinity's SWC limits versus what a modern squad can bring to the party.

    I mean, a modern US Army squad (or British/Aus Army squad) has 9 men:
    • Squad Leader (armed with basic rifle)
    • Fireteam 1
      • Team Leader (armed with basic rifle)
      • grenadier
      • SAW Gunner
      • Assistant Gunner (may also be armed with Marksman Rifle)
    • Fireteam 2
      • Team Leader (armed with basic rifle)
      • grenadier
      • SAW Gunner
      • Assistant Gunner (may also be armed with Missile Launcher)
    Building that in USARF looks like this:
    USAriadna Ranger Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]9
    GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    GRUNT Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
    GRUNT HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
    GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    GRUNT Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
    GRUNT HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
    GRUNT (Marksmanship LX) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)

    4.5 SWC | 128 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    And notice that it's missing the missile launcher. All your SWC has been spent and less than half your points have been spent!
     
  10. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    Well, if memory serves me right...
    Higher ranking ISS Agents, Cranes and ESPECIALLY Hsiens, have a lot of individual authority.
    So it doesn't sound completely out of place for a Hsien to barge into a military compound, point at a Yan Huo suit and say "I'll need two of your Yan Huos" and have those demands met.
    So I could certainly see the excuse of "The Hsien/Crane told those guys to come along" excuse being a decent excuse.
     
    Barrogh and Section9 like this.
  11. Shinen

    Shinen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2018
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    100
    That's something i love about the fluff and the general feeling from YJ. The Hsien demand your service for the sake of the stateempire and his citizen. No bickering, no autorithy quarrels and you would never question him because you know its not for personal gain but for the people even if he hast to sully his hands. And than came the upri****...
     
    TheEmptyRoad, Barrogh and Maksimas like this.
  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,004
    Likes Received:
    9,435
    Yep.

    A Hsien quite literally speaks with the Voice of The Dragon, anything they say or do is as if the Emperor Himself said or did it. So if you see one, your operation now has the attention of the Emperor Himself. You probably can find time to empty your now-undoubtedly-full suit 'waste collection systems' later. :smiling_imp: (If you're lucky, the Hsien will understand why you need to empty it :laughing:)

    Cranes are not quite as powerful, but it still doesn't help anyone's career to annoy someone in the Judiciary, particularly when the Judiciary also handles military justice.

    The difference is basically:
    • the Hsien gets asked, "will you need more assistance, sir? And will I need to arrange evac for the troops you're borrowing when you are done with them?" in a genuinely-helpful tone of voice; while
    • the Crane gets asked, "When can I expect my troops back, sir?" in a polite-but-firm tone.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,438
    Likes Received:
    7,996
    They are her security detail, of course. Doesn't matter than she's the most badass person in a 25km radius, when she's out of the suit doing PR stuff, Miranda and the Bounty Hunter are there to make sure she doesn't need to be filmed beating up a protesting Atek.

    Oooooh, a Phantom Doctrine campaign would be sweeeet. In fact, I think Infinity isn't a bad rule set for this type of gameplay.
     
    TheEmptyRoad and atomicfryingpan like this.
  14. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    1,344
    I really doubt Joan of Arc would be beating up protesting Ateks. Shes likely training during any downtime between missions. I imagine she has no social life, her life is war and only war. When not in battle shes probably at some monastery training herself or training other knights. At most she does PR appearances at Pano government's request.

    Remember, Joan of Arc work her way up the knight ranks from the bottom up. So she pretty much lives the life of any other knight and I doubt any knights are anywhere near Atek protests. If anyone is beating up Ateks it would be units like the Auxilia.

    Miranda and the Bounty Hunters are mercenaries. If Joan gets order to work with them then she'll work with them. So many of the ITS missions lend themselves to having bounty hunters involved that this doesn't seem odd at all.
     
    #14 Death, Dec 7, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  15. sevsterino

    sevsterino Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    157
    This 100 times!!! The Infinity fluff is one of the dullest out there and I would expect some actual information about units instead of bunch of adjectives describing how every unit is the most amazing one.

    Now that the books are going to be published more often it it is the right time for CB to get a professional writer. Reading the current fluff feels like reading Tolken's Silmarillion (as contrary to Hobbit or LOTR) with descriptions of hundreds of places and names that nobody will remember and care about anyway instead of focusing on key locations and characters and their stories. I get that this is the world building, but if this type of world building is all we get, then it is really dull and boring.
     
  16. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    370
    You mean, like Outrage? I'd like to see more attempts like this!
     
    McNamara likes this.
  17. Varsovian

    Varsovian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2018
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    234
    Personally, I do like Infinity fluff and the way it's written... I find it more engaging than the fluff from WH40K, which seems to include even more characters, all full of testosterone and really absurd names... And then, there's Age of Sigmar fluff, with these Stormcast Eternals characters who are all soooo good and heroic! And all have surnames like "Solbright", "Pureheart" etc. Ugh.

    Anyway, thanks for the input! BTW. I thought that Cranes outrank Hsiens?
     
  18. Daemon of Razgriz

    Daemon of Razgriz Ninja sniper

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2018
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    198
    No. Hsiens are the highest rank. Followed by cranes. Hsiens are the Emperor's proxy so to speak. Where ever the Jade throne has a vested interest. A Hsien shall be there.
     
  19. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    445
    It was darkly comical when the Zuyong LT was ordering around the Hsien in Red Veil. The Al Fasid insertion device took the cake though.
     
    Xeurian, Section9 and DukeofEarl like this.
  20. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    2,224
    Likes Received:
    1,707
    FYI Hsien, pronounced "Shen". means Immortal, spirit, god, deity, holy.
     
    Chaserabinov likes this.