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Playing into Tunguska, Need advice!

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by madcore, May 27, 2019.

  1. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    @madcore , I assume (don't see the posts anymore) some well known forum troll picked you up. I can only give you the very healthy advise to block certain people in this forum. Its a much better reading experience.
     
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  2. madcore

    madcore Member

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    You and I think alike :)
     
  3. madcore

    madcore Member

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    @zapp I just did that, thanks for the tip. I did not know I could. Don't worry, i'm done wasting my time ;)

    Funny thing is that I saw a post on a Yu jing facebook group talking about that troll (what a coincidence). Let's just say a lot of people have the same opinion I do about the character.
     
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  4. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    If it was actually a problem, and they changed it for the Xenotech, which didn’t they change it for the Madtrap? Because you actually sacrifice something and because it’s an intended mechanic.

    You actually pay points for the Madtrap, you have a finite number of them, they are an expendable ressources. What is your morally acceptable number of point you need to risk? 27 points + 28 points and .5 swc to enable you to do it twice seems like a fair price. The Madtrap price are actually built in that price you pay.

    The opponent can also dodge, kill your Madtrap user, kill the Madtrap, setup ARO that have MSV. Setup TO ARO to catch the user off-guard from a different angle. It actually requires your opponent to use his brain and play into your game rather than rely on dice.

    Do you also think that an Intruder shooting a TR bot (or any BS12 and less ARO) through smoke is bad for the game? Because it imposes a -12 and has literally no risk? They didn’t even need to sacrifice anything.

    Also, you if you want, you can put down both a nimbus and a smoke. That way your opponent also dodges at -3. (Put the Madtrap in the Nimbus, so they also shoot at -3)
     
    #44 Diphoration, May 29, 2019
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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  5. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Is it fine in JSA?

    A 10 point Keisotsu is cheaper than the point you pay to bring Madtraps and has literally no opportunity cost. The 5 man bonus also gives the Kempei +3. And the Kempei also has shock.
     
    #45 Diphoration, May 29, 2019
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Also any sectorial able to link an MSV2-3 and has smoke can pull it off (Ramah, for example), or if you don't care about losing half the Burst, with a Coordinated Order of the cheapest regular dude waltzing in front of the smoke while the actual MSV2 shooter sits behind it.

    A trick you can pull with a BSG TO camo/ODD at close range in cover against a Total Reaction bot too (for example, the Tuareg Doctor...)

    Sure, but it costs potentially the keisotsu, because it's the same problem when you have to ARO to a guy with direct template and a gun in front of you: dodge, and he will do it again if you survive, fire back and you both may die...

    The Xenotech was simply a "anybody with MSV2 or 3 AND smoke can pull it off, no cost at all", plus you would move the xenotech forward to plant his thingie later on.
     
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  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The same reason they allowed you to shoot people in the back from the front or they accidentally put a specialist Saito profile in JSA for like a whole year. CB are slow to correct mistakes, you'd think they'd be pretty quick about it but they're not.

    I'm starting to question whether you actually understand how this works. Madtraps are not finite, you can respawn them. You also can't kill the madtrap user. The Zhanying can stay out of LOF while the Madtrap triggers the ARO.

    And now try this same trick on a defensive link. It doesn't work. It's also far more order intensive requiring the recamo on surprise shot because otherwise range bands do matter. The madtraps on the other hand don't care about any of this, either you have an MSV2 ARO piece, or you get no say in the matter you have to dodge. Range, placement, nothing matters.

    Please refer to the previous post as it discusses why doing this with links does indeed have a big cost attached to it.


    Putting aside it being far less likely to succeed because of the burst reduction the big difference is it costs command tokens. They're finite, and spending them means you are making sacrifices elsewhere in terms of rerolls, rebuilding links, strategic use, reinforcing combat groups etc etc.
     
  8. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    The trick is part of the rule.

    Using rules to win a game is not a "dick move" or anything of the sort.

    We can disagree about how oppressive the trick is, I personally don't have a problem facing it, I adjust my game plan accordingly.
     
    #48 Diphoration, May 29, 2019
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    That interaction was there long before the Xenotech, there is absolutely no proof that this interaction isn't intended to be there, but what we have right now is a mechanic that works.

    Zhanying are invincible? You can go kill them in your active turn. Respawning madtraps costs order. If you want to be able to refill them, you're not paying for 4 different models to be able to do that single trick.

    I already gave a lot of examples on how you can counter this play, your need to proactively counter it and not rely on dice roll to save you.


    It cost at most 10 points for a Keisotsu for JSA to do it. If they dodge because they don't want to trade, it doesn't actually cost them anything.

    If you want to do it with Madtraps you're forced to pay 55 points and .5 SWC. Add 8 more if you went them to be refillable.

    I think it's pretty comparable.

    I also don't think cost matters in the slightest, it's the same exact interaction. If we're going to debate what things are balanced based on cost, we're going into a rabbit hole. Every faction has access to different tools that seem unfairly priced.
     
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  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    So was sticking models that engage on walls long before that also, it was still eventually changed. CB make mistakes are fairly glacial in fixing them, it doesn't change that this like the other things that were mentioned were pretty clearly just shitty rules interactions that weren't great for the game when abused.


    You have the option to kill the keisotsu. You trade an order generating piece for an order generating piece, and it costs them a command token to reform their link. If you shoot the madtrap you trade for literally nothing.


    You know unless you're playing starco or have Impersonation it's pretty much out of the question.


    Madtrap
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]8
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    GARUDA Tacbot Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8
    HSIEN Lieutenant HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61)
    ZHÀNYING (Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades, MadTraps / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 28)
    ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Your average player doesn't have the tools to get through a sea of crap like that to assassinate the Zhanying before they do the damage they want to do.

    You complain that it's "expensive" to do the trick. It's really not. For 100ish points you get both a great attack piece in the Hsien and you unlock the ability to completely remove your opponent's entire ARO defense. That is huge and it's not like that's all you get out of this, you still get everything the Hsien haris is capable of normally. Complaining that there's a huge cost to bringing a Pango is laughable, it's an 8pt order generator odds are you were putting these in the list anyway.

    I don't think you fully comprehend exactly how disgusting that is when you pair that an army that puts 5pt warband spam on the table.

    Basically what happens is the classic trap you see new players fall into in their early steps into the game, when they're at the stage that they don't quite comprehend the importance of AROs and hide all their dudes at deployment so they don't get shot. What happens from there is they wind up with a whole bunch of enemy models in their deployment zone or right outside it with chain rifles and flamethrowers and they're basically screwed because moving means they get blasted by DTWs.


    You pretty clearly don't understand what the actual problem is here if you think dice rolls are the problem.
     
  11. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I don't get why StarCo would be a better solution that any of the other armies.

    Any infiltrating camo, an impersonator or a drop troop could do it. Every army has access to one of those.

    You can either kill the Zhanying...

    Or you can kill the Pangguling and trigger the madtrap with a disposable trooper (cheap warband, perimeter weapon, holo echo).

    If having a baggage bot you need to kill in your active turn is "pretty much out of the question" you probably have a terrible list or need more experience.
     
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  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You need to reach the backline. Getting to the backline past several regular ARO options such as flash pulses TR bots plus a horde of DTW toting warbands is in practice, not viable for the vast majority of armies due to models simply not being able to either get through that or having enough orders to do so.

    Impersonators have a decent chance, drop troops and camo are basically screwed, they're not statistically likely to make it through all of that unscathed. Keep in mind if you're going first against this, your opponent counter deployed against you so the path is not going to be easy. If you're going second it's already too late as they'll crush your AROs on turn 1 and be done with it.

    It sounds like you're not experienced with StarCo then. Emily's spec fire is abnormally strong. She stands a pretty good chance of just being able to safely spam the Zhanying down.
     
  13. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Just move-move from cover to cover, recamo if needed. A camo that starts at 24" should not require many order to reach a baggage bot and have overwhelming odds of killing it.

    ISS is actually one of the faction that's the easiest to sneak to your target, they don't have a single minelayer. Just abuse your marker state, it's actually very easy to kill a target, especially a weaponless S4 remote.

    Emily sure is decent, I'm not convinced she'd do a better job than any of the other roles I mentioned. Spec Fire isn't very order efficient, but it surely is a riskless option.
     
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  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You are statistically likely to both be discovered by trying to bypass the multitudes of Kuang Shi hanging out in positions ahead of said Pango, and then also being unable to recamo both because you are going to be stuck in LOF of a multitude of models trying to get to the back of the table.

    This is putting aside the fact that even if you get there on your suicide run with your camo piece you need to deal 3 wounds to the pango in the one attack you get off which is again statistically unlikely, hell impossible if you are armed with a shotgun. Failure to deal 3 wounds means it just gets picked up by the Sophotect in the list.

    ISS and Yu Jing in general are actually one of the hardest factions for models to sneak into a high value target. You can get to their DZs fine, but when you get there you run into a net of 5pt idiots with Chain Rifles and get stuck trying to get past them.


    Unlike the camo markers she actually has a chance of doing it.
     
  15. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    That's debatable, and the gist of the issue I'd say. One of the big change going from 2nd to 3rd edition was the removal of most of those "free shot" rules, like the old suprise shot. A few remains, but they usually require a lot more set-up and have credible counters (shooting in the back from afar/msv2 smoke trick at point blank are countered by 6th sense rule, mod stacking doesn't work on units with BS13 or higher, etc...). I highly doubt they would have gone through the trouble and then be fine with tricks like that.

    But yeah it's legal. I know some people don't care how gamey something feels as long as it's okay by the rules, and they'll just stop using it if the rule maker decides it's not okay anymore without giving it a second though. Rules change, meta changes, whatever, just roll with it.
    So I'll just say using tricks like that is a very good way to fend off new players, and personnally that's the line I won't cross.
     
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  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You can add Smart Missiles to that list of things that got a well needed a smack over the head in the edition change.
     
  17. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    When the last post says "you are ignoring content by this member"...

    Anyhow, all this ISS talk makes me want to bring the old Hsien Haris + Su Jian Solo back. Such a fun sectorial IMO.
     
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  18. madcore

    madcore Member

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    loll...you and me both...from what I have seen on discord and facebook, there are a lot of us seing this message.

    You are right though about ISS, a great sectorial. A bit hard for new comers becasue of the lack of tools like mines, camo and such, also the threath vector is very predicatable with the Garuda being the only model with a different attack vector. It might not be true for all but I did struggle with these at first. I had to learn to deal with armies that have a lot more tools (or should i say different tools) that I do but still having a blast at every game. Learning a lot of new stuff lately and it is starting to unlock.
     
  19. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    This is why I hate ISS: no one except aleph robots can shoot well, no mines, no proper infiltrators, just throw chain rifles at your problem and run sophotect in smoke pushing buttons.
    and no ARO but thats yu jing in general, ARO pieces are overrated
     
  20. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Wut
     
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