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Playing into Tunguska, Need advice!

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by madcore, May 27, 2019.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's considered a real dick move, depending on your local area you may find nobody wants to play with you if you abuse it.
     
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  2. madcore

    madcore Member

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    Well I play in a competitive meta and I guarantee you that no one will say that. It is in the rule so I can use it. Others can abuse their rules so can I....and it's not like we are the only one that can pull this off. I've seen others in my meta pull this off and some doing it with White noise in Aleph....
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It costs them a linked model by giving their opponent the opportunity to trade for a kill rather than just being shot at with complete impunity, they don't get to do it for free with respawnable equipment. ISS are the only ones who can abuse the rules with equipment like that.

    If you think you need to as you put it, "abuse the rules to win", and your group is ok with then by all means go for it. Personally I think ISS is far too good for a player to need to resort to such brain dead rules abuse to win though. You can spam orders with 8 Kuang Shi, how many more crutches do you need up your sleeve to win?
     
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Also, keeping a Kanren KHD near Sunny is a great advice by @Maksimas - I suggest disguised as a Holo2:ed Sforza. For shits and giggles, you can have Sforza holoed as a Kanren KHD or another Sun.

    Sun can Cautious Move out of a Pitcher, meaning he'll only be in peril vs Core Hollowmen or Interventor Hacker or the significantly less dangerous (due to non-assault HD) Securitate Core Hackers.
    Alternatively you can simply tank it. With BTS 6 and a Sophotect near you can attempt to simply run out and have Sophie repair him if Isolated.
     
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  6. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    How can Sun CM out from pitchers? Mimetism does not grant Stealth IIRC.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Strictly speaking, the requirement for Cautious Move is to begin and end your movement outside the Zone of Control of all enemy figurines. A Repeater is Zone of Control for hacking purposes only and a Pitcher is not a Figurine or Marker.

    So essentially, for the same reasons why a Hacker isn't allowed to declare Change Facing when an enemy moves inside their Hacking Area but outside ZoC. Or why a Haqq Spec Ops with Jammer and Hacking Device isn't allowed to target enemies in a Repeater's ZoC but outside their own with their Jammer.
     
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  8. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Fair enough.
     
  9. madcore

    madcore Member

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    Well, to be honest, I have never used that trick before simply because, I do not play the Hsien that much. We have much cooler tools at our disposal if you ask me. This being said, I was not aware of that trick before and wanted to try the option to see what is was like. Used it twice during the entire game and to be frank, I would have been better using a nimbus grenade. The hollowman link is pretty resilient in cover. In the end my kuang shi are the ones that killed the link team. I love madtraps, but they are much better used for board control if you ask me.

    I don't see things your way but I guess it's a matter of semantic.
     
  10. madcore

    madcore Member

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    Thank you for all of those that gave me usefull advices. Won the game on decap by killing more troops and killing the hvt with my datatracker, giving me a 6-2 win (if I counted correctly).

    I have to admit that I had at least three crits that were critical in the game allowing me to take an edge in the game. I have also avoided a missile launcher shot that would have crippled my kuang shi link. But like me and my friend discussed yesterday, crits are part of the game. Overall it was very instructive and loved playing against that sectorial, they feel really strong.

    My kuang shi proceeded in destroying the link team. Once I had an advance in terms of points destroyed, I focused on making sure his engineers would never reached the hollowmen to pick them up.

    The hsien did not do much and could have been killed easily by my firend so I was not super convinced (in that match up at least). The madtrap smoke trick is amazing to get rid of sixth sense but it did not work out, these hollowmen are very resilient. In the end, it was the 5pts kuang shi that made all the difference.Pretty sure I will have to be much more prepared next time or I will be crushed.
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Uhhhh.... what?

    Could you please explain exactly how you're performing the madtrap trick and what AROs your opponent is taking with the Hollowmen because either you guys are doing something wrong, or your maths is totally off.

    The whole rules abuse with the Madtraps is that it essentially forces a dodge ARO and creates a broken rules interaction that, counter intuitive to infinity, allows you to easily prevent your opponent from being allowed to fight back. The maths on that is

    72.74% Hsien inflicts 1 or more wounds on Hollow Men, Tactical Assault Team (1 STR)
    37.49% Hsien inflicts 2 or more wounds on Hollow Men, Tactical Assault Team (Unconscious)
    12.13% Hsien inflicts 3 or more wounds on Hollow Men, Tactical Assault Team (Unconscious 2)
    2.22% Hsien inflicts 4 or more wounds on Hollow Men, Tactical Assault Team (Dead)

    vs

    6.27% Hollow Men, Tactical Assault Team Dodges Hsien

    It is super lethal and nimbus gets no where near those odds.

    Compared to Combi in bad range through nimbus



    Spitfire in good range through nimbus



    Missile in good range through nimbus



    We can pretty clearly see none of these scenarios get anywhere close to how straight up broken the Madtraps are for brute forcing anything down. Kuang Shi are certainly nowhere near this good, burst 2 on a chain rifle has a 65% chance to do absolutely nothing to Hollowmen.

    I think you either need to reevaluate or further explain your position here because it's not adding up for me.
     
  12. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    I'm assuming when they said Kuang Shi killing stuff, they meant the linked BSG Kuang Shi, not the Chain Rifle.
    Which might actually have some odds of doing something against a Hollow Man link with that Impact Template, TBH.
     
  13. madcore

    madcore Member

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    yes it was my link team kuang shi that did a lot of work.
     
  14. madcore

    madcore Member

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    Well sometimes, the dices are juste good. I could barely touch him and he passed all saves. Perhaps the nimbus would have helped by reducing his ARO to 1. All I am saying.

    You know, normally I would continue in a friendly argument but since you are basically calling me a dick for using such tactics, I will remain very polite by saying that I do not need to explain myself to you. Perhaps that was not your intentions and if not, fine. I do not hold a grudge, sincerely.

    I am a very new player, trying to learn a game I love. I have received insane amount of help from people on this forum, maybe even from you. Let's just say, this time it was not the case. Your whole argument about the madtrap smoke tactics is not even the main subject of this thread and does not help the conversation one bit. So let close it here.

    I replied to this thread today to simply thank everyone that helped me get prepared for my game and it helped tremendously. Thank you guys.I was able to put up a good fight becasue of your tips. Me and my freind both had a great game.

    Over and out :)
     
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  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I showed you the math dude. Nimbus doesn't even come close to what using Madtraps does in terms of effectiveness or success, completely ignoring the fact that it makes the attempts 100% safe you can't even suffer an unlucky wound in the process.


    You've explained all that you needed to, it's now clear that you're not looking at the actual odds of what you're doing you're just well... saying stuff with no logical backing and you're going off bias on what you happened to roll. Like I said, the math doesn't support what you're trying to argue here.
     
  16. madcore

    madcore Member

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    I am not even arguing your math nor saying your are wrong, I just explained what was my though process during the game...was I wrong? Perhaps, no big deal man....I am still learning this game. Do you even remember what it was like to learn this game? The amount of info you need to assimilate? Well add three kids and you'll get the idea for me....

    From your message i can see that you are a guy that spends an incredible amount of time thinking about this game. Good for you, whish I could have your knowledge. Perhaps you can use that knowledge and help others in a civil manner instead of calling them dicks? So far you have given zero insight on this thread about how to fight Tunguska, just saying...

    Let's stop this little pissing contest here shall we. Now add your next post just to make sure you have the last word if you need to and let's call it done all right?

    Have a good day man and no hard feelings on my side:)
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You're the one who suggested using a broken rules effect, the discussion is on topic. If you want to use it and your group is ok with cheesing it then I'm hardly going to stop you. However, try to be aware of exactly how brain dead stupid it is and please don't try to pretend that it's on the level with other interactions like using Nimbus grenades to hand wave exactly how egregious what you're doing is because as I've shown you it's very clearly not.

    It is considered bad form. There were other just as cheap and nastily broken interactions you could abuse in the past, that while you could use them it was ultimately better not to. Both because it produced a better game, and it didn't rub people the wrong way. You could do the same cheesedick move with the Xenotechs, it was removed because it was a jerk thing to do to people and it was just as overpowered. You could super jump and shoot people in the back arc from in front of them so they couldn't shoot back, removed for the same reasons.

    You used to be able to stick an engaging model to walls to trap them and make them unable to fight or react and trap them in CC, it was removed for good reasons.

    I would suggest you learn to play the game rather crutching on abusing broken interactions to cheese people. You will be a smarter, better, player for it in the long run not crutching on that shit and you won't develop a local meta of WAAC mentalities that ultimately drive the casuals and new bloods out of the game. Like I said, I'm hardly going to be able to stop you but doing crap like that is ultimately just shooting yourself in the foot in the long run.
     
    #37 Triumph, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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  18. madcore

    madcore Member

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    That is really cool, I was wondering how I could help defend against the pitchers. In my game I shot them but I could have done that. Tks will add that to my tool box.
     
    #38 madcore, May 29, 2019
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  19. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Every faction has mechanics and interactions that are incredibly strong.

    Use the tools that are available to you. You’re paying premium points to be able to execute that trick. Your opponent should expect it when they see you deploy and react accordingly.

    I don’t get the mora dilemma over using a mechanic, otherwise where so you draw the line? Is doing it with a troop okay? Is idle-shoot in smoke with a MSV trooper okay or is that still unfair? Playing a game by the rules should not be a moral dilemma.

    Just use the tools available and hopefully your opponent will do the same.
     
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  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Essentially the reason this is bad, and why it was scrubbed out when it was discovered the xenotechs were doing it, is because it breaks the core mechanic of Infinity and it makes ARO pieces completely useless.

    The main combat in Infinity is designed to be a two way street unlike other games where you get shot at and just make your saves and pick your models up, Infinity is designed so both players participate and get to make choices and can choose to fight.

    The difference between doing this with models that are literally worth nothing, and say using link team members like Druze with a Clipper or Black Friars doing this against MSV with albedo is that:

    • The reactive player is still an actual participant and gets to make decisions. They can choose to trade their soldier for one of your link team members, remove an order from your pool, cut your link bonuses down etc. Even if you have an engineer kicking around to pick up a clipper, if you try to dismantle a defensive like Dakinis there's like a 30% that your clipper out right dies. If you try it against say a BS11 defensive Missile Launcher it rockets up to over 70% you lose a model outright. This is a far cry from doing with Madtraps because your opponent has no sensible option other than to dodge because the madtraps are not worth shooting at. Doing it with a link member (or coordinated order) doesn't take the reactive player's agency away because there is still an element of risk to the active player that the reactive player can threaten them with.

    • This is expensive. Even if your model doesn't die and you can heal it there is a finite amount of times you can do this because you need to keep spending command tokens to reform the link to get your bonuses back. You sacrifice alot more to do this. Compared to doing it with Madtraps if your opponent can't gear check you with a very strong linked defensive MSV2 ARO sniper, which lets be real these aren't super common (like Tunguska who don't get MSV2), you can take the Hsien, sit him on the tallest piece of terrain you can find with his friends and literally just delete every ARO piece you can see one after the other risk free. Your opponent gets no choice or interaction during this all he gets to do is "take saves" by declaring dodge. The only mechanical difference between doing this with the Mad Traps and the Xenotech is every 3rd shot becomes a reload action instead.
    Tl;dr Links/Coordinated orders allow both players to play the game, Madtraps/Xenotechs only allow 1 player to play the game.
     
    #40 Triumph, May 29, 2019
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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