When making a CC Attack using a pistol am I using the CC attribute or BS? I don't see this mentioned anywhere. Also, do pistols get range bonuses in CC lol? EDIT: Here's the conclusion I've come to in case anyone doesn't want to go through this long polite thread. Vorpal Weapon is listed as a CC Weapon Pistol is listed as a BS Weapon Both have the CC Trait. However, the Vorpal Weapon has the Throwing Weapon trait that clearly indicates a change in attribute that the pistol does not have. Why does the Pistol not have a similar trait/note? Because CB thought their intention was clear, which was for weapons to not have default attributes. That way, the CC attribute is the only option for a CC attack. Unfortunately they failed. Currently the default attribute for a Pistol appears to be BS. The default attribute for a CC attack appears to be CC. Neither statement overrides the other. I understand the intent is a Pistol isn't BS by default... but the rules DO NOT make that clear. I understand the intent is all CC Attacks must use the CC Attribute... but he rules DO NOT make that clear. And because it's not clear, we look for answers elsewhere and draw our own conclusions.
If you use a BS ARO (for example you opponent do move-engage), you ARO shoot, he does melee as a second action, you are doing a face to face with your BS and range mod versus his CC roll, BUT you may suffer from some negative MOD from both visibility (ODD, CH ...) and cc skills like martial arts, i-khol ... since they apply on face to face (meaning you can be at -12 vs Penthesilea, indeed). If you declare a CC ARO using your pistol, this will be a face to face between your CC and his. You will use your CC attribute, no range mod nor visibility mod (ODD ...), any melee skill you may have (i-khol ...) vs his CC and mods. But if you win the f2f, you'll use your pistol damages instead of a probable PH-2 or PH-1 For example if you have an odalisque who has a low PH and CC, it may be better to use a shoot ARO on engage (unless your opponent has ODD or CH:TO - you may try the nanopulser through), then if you're still alive after the attack, use CC attack with the pistol, it has better damages than the knife on her.
CC Attacks are done with the CC attributes. You'll use BS with the pistol when making BS Attacks. Range MOD is specific to the BS Attack skill, you don't add range and cover mod in your CC Attacks.
I play it that way as well. But where does it say this explicitly? It's not exactly intuitive that that a gun using the BS attribute switches to using the CC attribute once in close combat. Also, using a pistol to make a CC Attack means it no longer requires LoF and the requirement is simply base to base contact?
I dunno, because you're shooting someone with a gun? My point is simply that it isn't very clear you use a different stat in those circumstances. I couldn't find find one example showing that these weapons use different stats depending on the circumstance. It's not exactly a typical occurrence with any other precedence I'm aware of.
It's not about the weapon, it's about the skill. BS Attacks use BS, CC Attacks use CC, you quoted as much in your first post. If pistols let you use a different stat for the attack they'd have a rule for it, like grenades do, but they don't.
http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Engaged Effect Troopers in Engaged state are considered to be in Close Combat (CC). For this reason, they can only declare CC Attack, Coup de Grâce, Dodge and those Skills which specify that they can be used in CC Combat or in the Engaged state, as Reset. You CANNOT declare a BS attack while engaged, suit yourself with any other view of the topic. Please, stop trying to read things that ARE NOT in the rules.
That doesn't make the rule any clearer. I understand the intent. But a trait allowing me to use BS weapons in close combat doesn't instantly tell me I should be switching my stat roll from being based on BS to CC. It tells me I can USE my gun in close combat, to make CC Attacks. I literately have to read the CC Attack rules and infer that when it describes using the CC stat it means more than simply applying it for CC weapons. I must somehow know it overrides everything. How about you please stop defending the rules as if they are perfectly clear or reasonable. EDIT: You know what's ironic. I'm the one reading only what IS in the rules. You are the one reading what isn't there.
Of course you have to read the CC Attack rules, you're declaring a CC Attack. And what's being over-ridden? Pistols are linked to using BS by the BS Attack Skill, which isn't being used when you declare CC Attack.
Being allowed to use the gun in CC is not the same as being allowed to use the BS Attack Skill in CC.
Pistol A BS weapon useful both at short range and in CC. Pistols are BS weapons that can be used in CC. It's not a weapon with two profiles showing clearly how it's used in both circumstances. Like multi weapons. It's very clearly a BS weapon. Again, being able to use it in CC and make CC Attacks doesn't explicitly tell me I should be using a different attribute for my rolls. Players must INFER the line about using the CC attribute also means it overrides the fact that a pistol is naturally a BS weapon.
@Ginrei , you should walk through slowly how an order is spent. Take note of whether the skill CC Attack (which explicitly tells you to use CC value) is declared prior or after you declare which weapon you use.
You mean 'not ignore what the Skill says'? 'BS Weapon' just means that it's normally used to shoot via BS Attack. No more, no less. They're not inherently linked to the BS Attribute except by declaring Skills - as others have said, you're adding links that don't exist in the rules and getting yourself confused as a result.
You are trying to use your gun in CC in such a way that you would use attributes and ranges MOD called for in the BS Attack skills. In effect, you are trying to perform a BS Attack skill (using its associate attribute and MOD) in close combat (and disregarding the attribute called for by the CC Attack skill).
"BS Weapon" literally means "Ranged Weapon". A grenade is a BS Weapon even if it uses PH, a Flash Pulse is a BS Weapon even if it uses WIP, a Forward Observer skill is even weirder but it's still a BS Attack labelled skill. The choice of word "BS Weapon" or "BS Attack" are perhaps unfortunate because "Ranged Weapon" and "Ranged Attack" would be more instantly recognisible and separate them from confusion with "BS" attribute, but that's about it.
You're making it sound as if Infinity is some well scripted rule set that clearly lays out step by step when rules text is applied. It most certainly is not. You're correct that a CC Attack is declared before choosing the weapon. But you need to look at the pistol weapon profile before you declare that CC Attack to even know you can do that. And everything you'll see about the description and profile indicates it's a BS weapon. CC Weapons even have their own chart. So the moment you declare a CC Attack you're stuck looking at the rule and asking yourself, does that override the BS attribute? There is no clear answer or example. I'm not ding that, nor am I on some crusade to play the game in any other way than it's intended. I'm trying to make the rules clear and easy to follow. If Infinity is to grow, which i assume people want, it needs to be playable. Not playable from the perspective of... 'I've been on the forums for years and all these rules are clear now and the game is really easy to follow'. The reality is Infinity is a nightmare of a game to get others to play and understand. This is not because the game is complicated or hard. It's because many things are not clear or make enough sense. I'd bet a small fortune Infinity would see larger growth from an improved rule set than any other improvement you could suggest. But those other weapons all clearly indicate the attribute to use and can't be used in other circumstances where the attribute changes.
