Unless the Spanish version of the rules has the same text for "Order Expenditure Sequence" and "sequence of the Order", I do not think they are talking about the same thing. Unfortunately I can't check on that at work, could be wrong but I suspect "sequence" is the cleanest way to get across the message. If they intended it to specifically apply to the capitalized "Order Expenditure Sequence", I don't think there would be any change to the wording. In the interest of continuing though, let's say you are right and it is referring the same thing. So if I go through the order expenditure sequence (not breaking this down to be condescending, just thorough because I want to get to the bottom of this): Activation: The Active Player declares Trooper A activates Order expenditure: Nothing Relevant Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, Move. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player declares an ARO, Dodge, with Trooper B. Declaration of the Second Skill: The Active Player declares the second Short Skill of the Order, firing on Trooper B. Declaration of AROs: No new AROs Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make Rolls. I haven't been allowed to Move yet because I haven't succeeded at a Dodge, so the only available statistic to use is the PH of the pilot. Trooper B wins the roll, dodging successfully. Effects: Trooper B has successfully dodged and may Move. He now chooses to mount the TAG since he fulfills the requirements to do so. Conclusion: There are no additional effects. Once you reach Step 8, the effects are set. There are no more rolls to be made so there is nothing to even apply a changed PH to. When you declare Move and mount as your second short skill in the active, I agree that it breaks open because there are now two possible base statistics you will modify to determine your rolls. When you can't Move until step 8, that's not an issue. IMO one valid reason I could see for not being able to mount a TAG in ARO is that you can't actually declare Move as an ARO, and the Move allowed from a successful Dodge is not counted as declaring the skill.
What would happen if a Szally pilot dodges into their TAG while under a Maestro attack? A TAG with an unconscious pilot inside? No, the rules are a bit too messy to allow this.
I'm a little curious about this topic. The rules seem pretty clear that a Dodge allows this: In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches. It says, or use another short movement skill, implying Move is indeed the short movement skill. Seems to me a trooper could declare anything that fits that description. I could ARO Dodge+Super Jump. The 2" move is fairly limiting of course but i don't really see any issues. Can anyone suggest an example, besides going prone, where using another short movement skill is beneficial? Mech-trans seems very much the same as mount/dismount with the minor difference that one breaks the rules lol. Based on @ijw 's recommendation i have to assume allowing an ARO Dodge Mount/Dismount was either never intended or written in error. However, I don't really see any game breaking advantages in having a house rule allowing it. In situations like this simply consider the pilot dead or prevent the movement. I'd prefer to just make ARO Dodge+Mount/dismount illegal to trim rule bloat but I can't in good conscious do that while allowing ARO Dodge+Mech-trans.
Quite honestly I think the Pilot makes the BTS save and if they fail, they get into the TAG and the TAG is unconscious. The real answer is that no one knows how that ends, would be up to the TO However, not all situations involving the Mounting ARO break the game, and the situation presented in this thread definitely doesn't.
It's not so much about game-breaking advantages, but that you end up with an unresolvable situation - the ARO Dodging trooper is simultaneously using the new profile's Attributes, but also not managing to Dodge to do that unless they succeed at the Dodge.
But the changed Attributes can't retroactively influence rolls that have already been made, correct? As I see it the reason it gets weird for the Maestro example is because ARM/BTS rolls occur at Step 8, once there could be two Attributes to use.
Maybe I wasn't clear but I understood what you originally meant. I'm also glad in this case you gave your opinion as a strong advisory. The game breaking advantages comment I made was directed at the implications of allowing ARO Dodge+Mount/dismount via a house rule. Because we'd need a house rule to cover the unresolvable situation created.
If a Pilot declare a Mount, you will use the TAG profile during the whole order. If a Pilot declare a Dodge+Mount, you should use the TAG profile for the dodge (i.e. PH greatly upgraded) but if the roll is failed he'll never get in. I'd be inclined to let it be that way, but then there are strange interaction like hacking attacks on a Pilot or other weirdness could come out in the near/far future.
But we have similar (if not that extreme in result) situation. Fireteam using SSL1 while at the moment of delayed ARO link breaks losing SSL1. (link benefits from SSL1 using delay, and then breaks by declaring different AROs thus losing very reason why they were allowed to delay)
Does that mean you'll also use the TAG's ARM if the attack against the TAG pilot is successful? Does that also mean that the attack will fail if the attacker doesn't have LOF to the TAG?
I'm on the side of NO, YOU CAN'T (DIS)MOUNT WITH DODGE, even if i'd liked more the other option. One is for sanity, the other is so fucking cinematic to not be allowed...
Just out of curiosity what would you say sequence of an order means? I mean even if we ignore the whole "order expenditure sequence" what else can it be? You quoted yourself that AROs and orders are going on simultaneously. I would interprete this as while that one order is being handled (enemies order in AROs case) you apply the new profile. I'm not stuck up on this because i think my reading is so totally correct. It is more because i can't even think of how to read order sequence differently. If they just meant active turn or order they could drop the sequence. Sequence is by definition at least more steps following on each other. But i would be happy to be convinced of something else. Yeah i said the same thing earlier in the thread. Someone pointed out to me that if that is the case going prone would also only work if we actively declare move because it uses the same wording. Dunno exactly what that would break though. I'm all for not allowing to dodge into a TAG at all myself.
Well what I am seeing here is the following. You're declaring the dodge skill in aro, and only if it is succesful are you allowed to actually move, so all rolls of the FTF will be resolved with the pilot's profile, since you do not meet the requirements to mount the TAG at the moment of declaration, i.e: Dodge has to win FTF to allow mounting the TAG. The TAG can be considered "Manned" at the resolution of the order, and so in following orders it would be able to shoot or dodge with his own profile. I read once that if the pilot dies, the TAG goes away with her, with an unconscious Pilot inside it the Tag cannot activate or do much, and only when the pilot is killed i.e: Breaking through the TAG's STR can you damage it.
That's fine but the point of this is to avoid settling for the solution of "I just don't want to deal with how complex it gets." So disclaimer: I am writing my explanations under the assumption that mounting was intended to be usable as part of the second skill of the order. If that assumption isn't correct, my argument falls apart. The new AI motorcycle rules imply this may be the case because, but I'm moving forward assuming that's not the case. To answer your question I think the mounted/dismounted profile applying the whole order sequence means that it functions in a way that is similar to mechanical transmutation, with the exception that once you choose to mount/dismount, you cannot mount/dismount again with your remaining skills. Essentially you apply the new profile from the moment you declare mount/dismount, but never before that. So if you mount on the first skill, you have to use that profile for the remainder of the Order. If you mount on the second skill, use that profile for the remainder of the order. If it applies the the entire order, the most basic example I can see of it not making sense is the following: You walk past a mine with your first short skill, then mount-move with your second. Was your armor higher the whole time because you hopped on your bike after the ARO? That doesn't make any sense to me and would create a weird double profile situation most of the time it was used. To show where my logic is going with this, the two craziest results IMO of my interpretation happen when: a) the pilot declares an ARO dodge and the Active trooper lays down a template weapon over both the TAG and Pilot. b) the pilot is the target of a successful hacking attack, and dodges into the TAG. My interpretation of the results would be: a) the pilot dodges successfully, but the TAG must still take relevant armor saves using it's ARM. b) the pilot makes a BTS save using their BTS. If it does not cause, whatever state would be applied to them is applied to the TAG. If it did cause a wound, the pilot takes that wound and if they are unconscious, the TAG is now unconscious.
I can confirm that it's an incorrect assumption, and that the AI Bike rule was specifically re-written because of this.
With that confirmation, I am willing to concede that if the intention is for it to work that way, I'll play it that way.
This is a bit of necro but i'm curious about this case, is there any further clarification up to now? In the Expel rules (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Expel) it says: For the opponent to be able to use the TAG's Troop Profile instead of the Pilot's, the Pilot must declare a Short Movement Skill (or an ARO) to mount the TAG again. The trooper regains the TAG's Troop Profile at the beginning of the following Order after mounting the TAG. Is this applied only if the pilot is outside after the hacking attack or if you voluntarily end your turn with your pilot in b2b with the TAG? I guess in this case you remove the pilot from board at the end of that order, so you can't move the TAG/vehicicle in that ARO, right? This could lead to some weird interactions: What happens if the pilot declares it is gonna move to mount and take 1 wound? As there isn't further clarification the pilot should enter regardless of it state and, unless stated elsewhere, there is no rule that prevent you to activate the tag if the pilot is unconcious inside. This is a bit weird. Is oficially allowed to dodge + use the free movement to enter in the TAG? Is the state of the pilot "saved" until the next time it dismounts?. I mean, if an enemy uses Expel or you brain fart and dismount, is it unconcious? Thanks in advance!
