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Petition: Guijia, Raicho and Maghriba

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Mahtamori, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Please consider differentiating the Guijia from the Raicho from the Maghriba from the Lizard.

    All of them have: BS 14, PH 17, ARM 8, BTS 6 and a MULTI HMG.

    They all occupy the same rough role with roughly the same individual performance. They are all one of the most rare types of troops (TAGs) with the fewest units in other factions that they could possibly be the same as. Special note goes to the Maghriba with 360 Visor that, albeit very, very, expensive makes for a very different experience.

    I think all four of these need special gear or equipment to enhance their performance and their attractiveness as useful centre-pieces in armies and in tournaments so while I will make no special suggestions in this post, my general suggestion is to provide all three with cost-effective skills or equipment to make them better than currently and different from now, again with a special nod towards the, I believe, impopular cost of the 360 Maghriba.

    There is an ongoing debate on TAGs and their performance, but this is not part of that debate.
     
    #1 Mahtamori, Dec 15, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
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  2. leigen_zero

    leigen_zero Morat Pacifist

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    Raicho has the Morat rule, it's a religious TAG that ignores isolation and retreat, which kind of gives it a bit more flavour than simply a hard-to-kill HMG platform.

    There's a lot of call for the raicho to get Full Auto of some description, what with the fluff saying 'most of the Raicho's weight is made up of all the ammo it carries'
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Give the Raicho Full Auto L2, drop the point cost on that 360 visor on the Maghariba Guard, and give the Guija an X-Visor.
     
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  4. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    +1 vote for the Raicho having Full Auto. I can convert a giant ammo holler if it's gonna help move things along ;)
     
  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Soooo you are saying that Raicho should shred Squalos ?

    (as with Full Auto Lv2 Raicho has 20% better chance of wounding Squalo during active than on opposite terms)

    Raicho (Full Auto Lv2) vs Squalo : 71.5% vs 6.89%

    Squalo vs Raicho (Full Auto Lv2): 51.32% vs 16.51%

    ?

    Knowing that Full Auto Lv2 on infrantry costs around 10 pts I wouldn't be surprised if Morat players would love they new +20pts Raicho ;/ (also while still being 20pts it might be quite popular option)
     
  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The Maghariba has a +20pts 360º visor because of Suppressive Fire in the middle of the table. We are talking a S8 base here, plus 60cm of reach... It would cover almost all of the table, but for the corners.

    The Raicho could use a Panzerfaust, frankly. And the Guijia... I'm not sure about which is supposed to be its flavour, frankly.
     
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  7. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
    Warcor

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    @Mahtamori I'm curious what your thoughts on the Squalo and Lizard are.
     
  8. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    @toadchild These two have the HGL option thus they're clearly special enough ;)
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Why not?
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Adding Lizard to the list. Oh dear, that's a lot of carbon copy.
    Squalos I think is sufficiently different simply from the Remote Presence and extra BS, it really makes a significant difference, but it's sort of bare minimum and what's exciting about the Squalos is the Grenade Launcher above all else.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I would be okay will all of these, but I don't think the X-visor is very exciting - useful for Suppression, but not very interesting or exciting. Naturally it would make the Raicho silly expensive (we're well over 100) and the Maghriba would need to be reduced quite significantly, probably near where Raicho/Guijia is atm (I do not think the 360 visor is all that hot). My preference for the Guijia, as I've written elsewhere, would be to make it tankier (preferably in a round-about sort of way where pure ARM against Normal and T2 damage goes down, but Total Immunity makes it much tougher against dedicated anti-tank weapons)
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    X-visor would be a small thing, but useful for not being out-ranged by snipers and using it at point blank against people good at dodging flamethrowers.
     
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  13. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I feel the entire point of Maghariba is to be a discount standard TAG. It kind of good at that.

    The problem with 360 visor is not only cost, but also with it being underwhelming on a manned TAG, a unit that rely on passing those ARM rolls more than other things with survivability going for them.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I see what you mean, but the few times I've faced the Maghriba, I've been relieved it's never ever the 360 version - means I can sneak my Ninjas up on it without them getting burned to death.

    Given the designs of Pan-O TAGs and how the light Nomad TAGs have their stats, I'd say a "discount standard TAG" is more along the lines of a 6-6-6 stat line (6 ARM, 6 BTS, S6) mostly because with the exceptions of these 4/5 medium TAGs that are all basically carbon copies of one another, there's not much else on offer and the stat line itself makes them sufficiently prohibitively expensive that the whole "discount TAG" part gets dropped.
    That's really the part I envy Pan-O for, not that they have so many interesting TAGs, but that nearly all of them have skills or equipment that gives them very distinct advantages to play on. If the 360 visor isn't sufficient to slot that in, then I suppose a points discount is - though I don't agree with that the Maghriba is so much less expensive than the other 3 (because the disadvantages don't merit it). Regardless of which, if the 360 option is to remain, I do think that it needs to be brought down to a level where people feel it's worth investing in (though I haven't delved into the Haqq forums, so I'm speaking from what I've heard in my local meta on the 360 topic).
     
  15. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, lets make the rest of the factions have more unique TAGs so Pano can have nothing note worthy.........

    Pano is the TAG faction and TAGs aren't exactly Ideal in ITS (though you can certainly make them work). At least manned TAGs have specialist pilots with decent wip. Pano is stuck with WIP 10 remote pilots. What? Giving those remotes WIP 12 at least was too powerful? Sigh. *yeah, I know they go up to WIP 11 with the tech-bee.

    The Maghriba is actually one of the better low tech TAGs. Forget about the 360 visor, its not worth the points increase. There are many ways to get around supression fire TAGs and take them out. Haqqislam has a lot of low cost units to supplement a cheap TAG. Its more an issue that TAGs require skill and experience to play well. And a lot of players just assume their manned TAG are not worth using and therefore never develop the skill to use them well.

    Yeah, Full Auto on the Raicho is a pipe dream. Way too powerful. I'd prefer Full Auto to be on the Sogarat since they are currently not really worth their cost. PH 15 Automedic sounds great but you can always heal Suryats with a WIp 14 doc + reroll. But Full Auto Sogarat would bring some unique firepower. Burst 3 Feuerbach outside of a very expensive haris? Yes please.
     
    #15 Death, Dec 16, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Don't be daft. Or do you mean to say that we should remove all Pan-O HI and keep only Orcs so that they don't encroach on Yu Jing?

    Pan-O will still keep their TAG supremacy by not only having loads more TAGs than all other humans, but also some of the fanciest ones. Not to mention that, again, Pan-O have way too many and way too fancy HI and MI for you to be making this argument.
    Hell, this argument isn't even about adding more TAGs, only making the few existing ones more interesting and varied. They aren't even in the same factions.
     
  17. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Most Pano HI don't compare to Yu Jing HI. So while we have a lot of variety, its still inferior to what Yu Jing gets. And I'm ok with this. Every faction should have their unique aspects.

    They already gave manned TAGs specialist pilots with decent WIP. What more do you want them to do? What exactly is the Pano faction identity if everyone has TAGs with unique skills? Having load more TAGs is not the same type of advantage as say, Haqqislam which has loads of high wip LI to sport one decent TAG.

    Panos large variety of units is deceptive. We have a lot of units that don't see play outside of their sectorial. Thats because the vast majority of Pano units do only one thing well, shooting the enemy. This is the not the same as say Haqqislam or Nomads who have a large selection of toolbox units to choose from.

    Our HI and MI are bare bones. As the joke goes, slap on Mimetism and high BS and CB has made another Pano unit. Yu Jing has the fancy HI, Nomads the fancy MI, and Haqqislam the fancy LI.

    The main saving grace of Pano is that blasting enemies of the table with superior firepower is always going to be effective in a game as lethal as Infinity.
     
    #17 Death, Dec 17, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You aware Lizard also have it ? And HFT on non HGL profile ?
     
  19. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Will settle for removing "totally not a TAG" Su-Jian and Karakuri ;P
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Most Yu Jing HI are fairly basic. You can't compare the entire range to the Su-Jian or Crane and call it a day. Comparatively, what's missing in the Pan-O TAG range are TAGs that compare better to Geckos, but Pan-O has access to high-quality HI so that wouldn't make sense. However, with the new SWAST and Taskmaster HI (who are Yan Huo, but with lighter weapons and lots of frills), Nomads now have access to HI that out-perform the low-grade TAG that is the Gecko.
    No, I did not see that. Doesn't change anything other than a need to separate it in a direction that does not approach the Squalos.
    Please stick to topic.