1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Patsy + Kamau + Machinist Haris now broken?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by ThananRollice, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,368
    Likes Received:
    4,494
    Do we know Nisse are getting mixed link options? A bunch of the classic MSV2 units like Djanbazan or Yaogats are stuck in relatively expensive un-mixes fireteams, which makes it expensive to get them full bonuses.
     
    Judge Dredd likes this.
  2. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    531
    Likes Received:
    1,224
    True. If memory serves, the Nisse were only linkable with themselves in the Closed Battle Lists we got.
     
  3. gregmurdock

    gregmurdock Extremely Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    410
    Likes Received:
    819
    To briefly bring it back to the Mentor, unlike Aleph and Nomads, a Shasvastii player doesn't even have to bring it to "have it". Since it's private info, as long as you have a camo token in your DZ it can be assumed it's there and your opponent won't waste their tokens.
     
  4. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,755
    Likes Received:
    2,185
    you're ignoring the aspect that in the 180+ link team you're purchasing more quality troopers. you say there are no "downsides" to taking a cheaper team but that's obviously not the case – especially when your one SWC piece goes down.
     
  5. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,865
    Likes Received:
    6,046
    Backtracking a bit, but I agree with this wholeheartedly.

    Speaking generally about that topic:
    I've mentioned it a few times, and I've had some good conversations with competitive PanO players about this, but I think Acon's a much more competitively viable and stable Sectorial than Varuna. Varuna's strong, but the nature of its rule interactions leave it vulnerable to distinct hard counters, and they have some constrained list building options. Even simple Camo units essentially bypass all the strengths of Jammer, Helots and Kamau MSV2. VIRD's defense can be picked apart by a good knowledge of game mechanics. Ironically, Acon's relative simplicity (a defense that relies almost entirely around antipersonnel minse) is also one of their great strengths, because very few mechanics protect vs mines.

    VIRD's general scarcity of antipersonnel mines mean that they don't have a way of forcing units out of Camo, breaking Stealth on units maneuvering in Eclipse / White Noise, etc. The price point of most VIRD units also demands pretty significant commitment to certain profiles in exclusion of others. A Sensor Jammer Zulu Cobra, for example, is a great tool... But isn't a Specialist, and won't directly help with scoring in most missions. By Comparison, a Naga starts in a better position, has the versatility of Infiltration, brings along antipersonnel mines, and functions as a Specialist. The ZC is a more optimized tool, but the Naga has strengths in all the right places when it comes to ITS scenario play. I think that's an appropriate metaphor for both Sectorials as a whole; VIRD appears more spectacular, but Acon's has strengths in all the right places.

    Tying this back to the topic:
    The removal of options, particularly options that don't have a significant impact on competitive viability, are always unfortunate. Changes like this, while not critically bad, still restrict player choice, and therefore have an impact on the internal balance and diversity of the Sectorial.
     
    #85 barakiel, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  6. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    4,867
    Agreed and i have been saying that. Asa gets a little more redundancy in its basic tools as well. You can generally squeeze 2 akals into a list and dogged on naga keep em trucking to do their job.

    And in most fights the bagh msr is basically as good as a kamau
     
    #86 daboarder, Jul 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
    barakiel likes this.
  7. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,865
    Likes Received:
    6,046
    For sure, was thinking of our dialogs in my earlier post. That Dogged is pretty significant. I've had a lot of plans go wrong because I need my ZC to clear a light opponent, only to eat a Crit. That Dogged on Nagas really adds Stability in the case of bad dice or tough opposition.
     
    ijw and daboarder like this.
  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    4,867
    And dart is a game changer. I think its a bit of a case of old reliable, ASA just plays a good solid no frills game. VIRD is amazing, but has its limitations once you start unpicking them. That being said, we are also at the begining if VIRDs life and i think theres another layer of depth beyond kamau and helots and jammers ti squeeze out of them yet.
     
    mauriciorjbr, ijw and barakiel like this.
  9. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,744
    Likes Received:
    5,770
    I'm actually surprised by comparison between Nagas and ZCs. They're a different kind of unit. Croc Men are more of a direct counterpart.

    I also wouldn't say VIRD is more vulnerable. It's a bit different because it has to rely more on higher tech level, and it lacks workhorses like GdA, Tik, or Dart. But the tools they do have available aren't that easy to unravel. Jammers and TO Camo are two first things that come to mind.
     
  10. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,755
    Likes Received:
    2,185
    Sort of – Your ZC and your naga both function as a midfield capable gunfighter/button pusher hybrid, who performs zone denial after they've completed their job. for me at least. The crocman floats this weird spot around straight up killer. Whether you take the Multi sniper and plop yourself on a building or take a combi to kill TR bots and the like. Chances are he is going to try and leverage those modifiers a lot more than your ZC and Naga and end up causing problems in the enemy table half versus the Naga and Zulu who offer more defense.
     
    daboarder likes this.
  11. Cadmo

    Cadmo Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    43
    This is quite interesting. In general terms I agree with you @barakiel, I have retaken ASA these last months, alternating with VIRD and I also find it much more flexible and efficient. However, sometimes I wonder if that "efficiency" I see is not very influenced by these discussions or this forum in general.

    I say this because a few days ago a friend sent me a video of @Vaulsc , who is very dedicated to this game and always upload interesting material to watch and reflect on youtube. The video is a vote of 26 people who classify the sectorials from the strongest to the weakest and guess who is in the first place ... Varuna! (followed very closely by Shasvastii and Tohaa), while ASA appears only in the middle.



    It is very curious as depending on the meta or who you play with and discusses about the game, your perception varies a lot. As a Varuna player, I think the power of the sectorial is a bit overrated, but it is interesting to know that other arguments exist. Sadly in this video, there is no deep explanation of why VIRD is considered so strong but could be useful for a general view of all sectorials.

    In addition to what was added before regarding the defensive game of VIRD, it seems to me that Varuna doesn't have an active or offensive game so strong, and maybe that's why it bothers me a little. Also, ACO has an excellent half table control with Nagas and Dart (with many more options that only F2F shoots) that Varuna doesn't have so developed. Finally, ASA has better integration with remotes than VIRD as well, which makes it more dynamic and with more options in list composition.
     
  12. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,865
    Likes Received:
    6,046
    @Cadmo
    I like community content, but I don't think 26 is a compelling sample size. Sure,VIRD is 100% a top tier army. But I also think that competitive players can identify for themselves which armies give them the best range of tools for success. As the global meta continues to evolve and stabilize, players will get better at beating existing tools. I think Acon is actually more more resilient to this than VIRD is, simply because of the type of tools that Acon can leverage. VIRD is subject to hard counters, which strong players are already using. Acon is less vulnerable to these mechanic-based hard counters.
     
    #92 barakiel, Jul 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  13. Cadmo

    Cadmo Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    43
    don´t get me wrong, the content of the forum seems great to me. I'm just saying it's interesting to see how opinions can vary and it's always good to look at other points of view. Of course 26 people is not an adequate sample for a global idea about a ranking, in fact I think it is not even possible to make a ranking like that. But that does not invalidate the position of those 26 players, nor the arguments they can bring in the discussion. I considered it a good idea to show the opinion of other people who probably do not write so much in this forum.
     
  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,989
    Likes Received:
    5,666
    @ThananRollice I am not sure, I will try the Patsy, varuna tinbot BS orc and Kamau hacker and the Patsy FO and HMG Kamau.
     
  15. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    911
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    Could you expand on this a little? I think I have some idea of what you mean, but I don't often see the term 'hard counters' used in an infinity context, so I'm interested to see where your head is at here.
     
  16. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2018
    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    796
    To be fair, it means people saving .5swc to form their roaming kamau haris need to spend an extra 4-5pts for the third specialist, and get a better troop out of it anyway.
     
  17. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,865
    Likes Received:
    6,046
    Sure. I agree, I don't think Infinity is necessarily a game of hard counters, so I'm happy to clarify the comment. Wall of text here, so apologies in advance.

    For the sake of others: as an example, people often "MSV is a hard counter to Camo." This is a mistake, because the existence of MSV does not directly counter the advantages of Camo. Camo is still good, even versus targets with MSV. Infinity is full of interactions with this... Inversely, MSV is not required to counter a Camo unit. You can often just gunfight a Camo unit down, even with the negative mod.

    Responding to RobertSheperd:
    VIRD's defense and table control rely on mechanics that do get simply negated by other rules. White Noise and Eclipse negate Kamau MSV2. Stealth / Marker State / Veteran negate Jammer. Smoke / Marker State negate Helots. Some of the tools that make VIRD superior in some circumstances have glaringly vulnerabilities in other circumstances.

    This means that a VIRD army can get "picked apart". Additionally, VIRD's focus on 1-Wound troopers with medium-to-high-cost means they can't afford for an opponent to break through their defense.

    As a result, VIRD players need to overlap each of these defenses for best effect. This can create a really dominant defensive game, but it also means that VIRD list building gets trapped/railroaded into requiring units in order to build a cohesive defense... Your either invest in each of these defenses to support each other, or you accept that you'll have a weaker defense.

    By contrast, Acon mostly relies on mines. Mines are great because they have very, very few counters. They hit Camo models, smoke models, Veterans, all of the above. Acon can get an ARO tool that's almost on par with the Kamau MSV2 (Bagh Mari Sniper) but also gets the universally helpful, broadly useful tool of mines in huge abundance.

    Speaking generally about both VIRD and Acon:

    Acon can field a defense that's almost as good as Varuna's, but require less dedicated investment; you can build a good Acon list that's inherently very good at defense and area denial, without having to go out of your way to do it. A Zulu Cobra provides excellent DZ defense and helpful Sensor for 29 points, but that's nearly 30 points that typically does one role, and requires a lot of Orders to do it. An Acon Regular provides DZ defense and Sensor for 14 points, and is at a very comfortable pricepoint for simply cheerleading.

    Similarly, a Kamau Sniper provides BS16, Mimetism, MSV2, MULTI Sniper. A Bagh Mari Sniper provides BS15, Mimetism, MSV1, MULTI Sniper and Minelayer for 28 points. It's a good example of the two different designs of these Sectorials... The Kamau might be strictly better in a straight f2f, or shooting through smoke. But the Bagh Mari is a more versatile tool, providing one more great asset in the form of mines, and does it for quite a bit cheaper.

    Another example. I think both the Zulu Cobra Sensor/Jammer and the Naga are easy to compared, because I view them both as being mandatory to a list. @Stiopa asked why I'd pick the ZC Sensor for this comparison, and not the Croc, which is a more direct counterpart to the Naga. The reason I compared the ZC and the Naga is because I think players are almost alway fielding max AVA of these units, or close to it, and so they rely on them to fulfill a critical role.

    Zulu Cobra Jammer/Sensor is a great defensive asset, utility tool, and light gunfigher... But it's not a Specialist, is limited in its Classifieds, and is exceedingly Order Hungry if it wants to do anything besides passively sit there (FD L1 means it doesn't start far up the table... Triangulated Fire, though great, requires a huge amount of Orders... If you want the Jammer to be most safe, it has to dig itself in to rooftops or higher elevations...) A Naga, though certainly not as Specialized, still bolsters defense via mines... Comes with multiple Specialist options... And is generally a decent gunfighting choice too. The Naga's less spectacular in some instances, but is versatile that are ways which are extremely useful. The Naga also deosn't need to be in harm's way to do its role. It can drop mines, then hide. The mines do the job of being in harm's way, not the Naga. Similarly, the Naga's mines are supporting the 2-3 Minelayers in the Acon DZ, further laying their defense, and letting the Naga focus more on the mission and less on midfield control and interdiction. The Zulu Cobra Jammer is amazing, but requires you to be within 8 inches of an enemy (a naturally dangerous place to be) and also requires the ZC to reveal itself from Camo to be effective (thus nullifying its Camo state, which is one of the game's best defensive assets.)

    This highlights the personal experience that my Snake Eaters are often in highly dangerous, really threatening situations where they critically need to be in the right place, at the right time, with the right dice results, do achieve their role. Sometimes I lose them, especially to Crits or unlikely dice rolls, and it impacts the game heavily. A Naga, however, can lay some mines, hit its button, and be confident that it's backstopped by a very robust, well-defended Acon backline. Acon's defense doesn't rely as much on units being in harm's way.

    So namely, while VIRD tends to delivery more spectacular results when things go well, it can suffer uncontrolled attrition very easily, and can start to unravel based on bad dice interactions or poor positioning by the owning player.

    Acon's more able to adapt to changing circumstances, fulfilling the mission in a more fluid, order-efficient fashion while generally keeping its backfield more stable, and its units out of harm's way with greater ease. VIRD is "better" in a lot of the general interactions that players value, but Acon is better in a take-all-comers environment because of the great flexibility and optimized versatility of their units.
     
    Hexa, BLOODGOD, Cadmo and 7 others like this.
  18. Nomadimp

    Nomadimp Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    42
    Re: Varuna vs SAA - I think that they actually complement each other quite well in vanilla.

    2 Minelayer Sensor Regulars, 1 Helot LR and a ZC sensor jammer is 66 points 1.5 SWC -- gets you a 4 camo shell game and 3 sensors. The Helot/jammer is pretty scary when you're not sure if it's a mine or not. From there you can lean into it more with a bagh mari sniper or crocman minelayer as well if you want - haven't tried it yet.

    That may seem like a lot of SWC but you can also add in Joan for extra SWC and she makes the helot regular, at which point you can also take a monstrucker for a 13pt regular, climbing plus SMG, chain rifle, drop bear specialist (along with the warcor and techbee). The cube jaeger I'm on the fence about but depending on the mission could be worthwhile.

    Anyway, point is that you can mix some really strong units from SAA and Varuna to play vanilla in ways that definitely weren't possible before and I think maybe have been a little overlooked.
     
    emperorsaistone, Cadmo and daboarder like this.
  19. Sungwon

    Sungwon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    6
    I am just a MO player who started this game about a year ago, but I think I have to step in this topic.

    The hardest counter to the mines is their trigger area. Mines can do nothing to outside of its trigger area. Mines do not protect your deployment zone from far HMG shots nor force your opponent to waste their order to find the way out of their deployment zone. On the other hand, MSV L2 sniper in a full core does this very well. I agree with your comment on the Bagh Mari Sniper is more versatile tool but that does not validate the mines are much better than MSV L2 sniper in a cheap full core fireteam.

    Your comparison between the ZC Sensor/Jammer with Naga bugged me for days. First, you are comparing a single profile of Zulu Cobra and the full range of Naga's profiles. If you use a minelayer Naga, it is not a specialist. On the other hand, specialist Nagas (for example, forward observer) don't have a minelayer. They need at least two orders to mine and recamo, which can also be order hungry.
    Second, you should not compare them because they are auto full-ava include to their sectorial lists. It's like comparing Father Knight Missle Launcher and Tarik Mansuri because they cost simillar and goes into a fireteam with cheap(er) cheerleaders. In my point of view, ZC and Naga have different roles and thus they should not be compared directly. In ASA, the deployment zone and a defensive Regulars+Bagh Mari fireteam is relatively safe from camo infiltraters due to mines. So Nagas' duty is deployed outside of the DZ, expand your minefield, and do the missions. In VIRD, Kamau sniper is very good at long-range aros and killing revealed camo markers, but she cannot commit discover since one bad roll can kill her. So we need additional defense to discover camo and impersonaters, which is sensor/jammer ZC. Their forward deployment will help them position to secure your core fireteam from camo markers. Also, with sensor, they are much more efficient to hunt down markers.

    I think the strength of VIRD is not each profile but their combinations. Kamau sniper dominates long-range firefight, Helots serve as cheap midrange ARO pieces, and ZC denies any camo marker approaching to your fireteam. They restrict your opponent's movement and force them to make sub-optimal choices. I think that's why VIRD is one of the strongest sectorials and people rank it as the first.
     
    Cadmo, Stiopa and Ayadan like this.
  20. Seraphin

    Seraphin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    73
    I'm not so sure about camo denial part, like mentioned already before by Barakiel. On more dense tables, they will approach and at least try to do some damage before you can jam them or shoot with Helots. Ofc you can have some Crocman minelayers lurking around, but question is if you want to keep them so close to your DZ.