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Patsy + Kamau + Machinist Haris now broken?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by ThananRollice, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I agree, it's unusual because it's relatively objective ;)
     
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Right, I have massive respect for that so let me return the gesture and say that I’m sorry that you feel that way and although I don’t know what I did to deserve your ire, let me tell you that I admit it’s hard for me to read my posts and considering the receiver. Which I suspect makes some of my posts sound way more harsh or hostile, despite the fact I rarely ever put any emotion into them.

    No offence taken but it’s a good question.

    No matter how my posts may come across to some people, I’m not claiming to be the paragon objectivity or game balancing but I do believe there’re mechanics (or rather units) that can be objectively observed as having a very detrimental impact on the game, so when I say something is unbalanced in Infinity, it’s because I think something performs disproportionately good, compared to the effort you put in to it and I like my games to be 2 players with close to equal army options, where the one taking the correct decisions wins the game, because the game emphasise player agency.

    So with that being said, Infinity isn’t like 40k, where player agency is close to non-existent, which means perceived overpowered units won’t win you the game but one can make the argument that said units gives you an unfair advantage. The reason why I take issue with Haqqislam for example, is that most Haqq players I’ve met so far (in tournament ITS season 10) haven’t been as good as my local players, so their decision making loses them the game but despite this fact, I’m using a disproportionate amount of resources to either deal with or circumvent things like Mutts, Libertos, Krakots and Daylami’s. The Varuna players I’ve lost to, on the other hand, just outright outplayed me. They didn’t tilt, took correct decisions, built a better list for the mission and had a very tight deployment and I can’t point at anything because I think everything in Varuna is entirely appropriately costed and nothing have bizarre rules circumvent basic rules of the game. Sheskiin (and to some extend, Tariq) is a unit I take special issue with, because there’s no thought process involved with her. Her mechanic bypasses standard mechanics like ARM and she can entirely move around like a headless chicken on an open field, because she will always have cover, on top of the fact that she’s forgiving of crits against her and have 6-4, as well as a large DTW, all while being in the price range of Mowang/Geckos/Xeodron. That’s the worst case of point and click I think of.
     
  3. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Probably opening a can of worms, but why is the Mentor Lt OP in your opinion? In SEF its not significantly different to the old Aswang aside from slight upgrades in terms of the Ambush Camo and Counter intel. But in Vanilla its even more limited by its SWC cost. Whats making it such a stand out for you?
     
  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Mostly due to combination of Counter Intelligence being on something that’s hidden from plain sight. Truth be told I’m actually more of the opinion that Counter Intelligence is a badly designed rule. Limited insertion lists are rewarded with being immune to -2 orders, in order to incentivise actual elite armies. I don’t think armies, especially like Nomads and Vanilla Aleph and OSS, should be rewarded with absurdly cheap cheerleaders who will then bring a rule that not only devalues Limited insertion lists, but further rewards order spam.
    I find the Mentor especially egregious because, traditionally, CA doesn’t have cheap Lt.’s and this is offset by being nearly immune to LoL, you could go the ultra cheap Lt. option but then he would be very exposed and low WIP (relatively speaking). The mentor brings a marker state, and extra token, protection against assassins, improved WIP and comes with a CQC defensive weapon, as well as vastly improving your Rambo run with sheskiin and, due to being so cheap, now vastly increases the amount of resources you can bring, removing the former restriction of expensive or exposed Lt.

    That’s my take on it anyway.
     
  5. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    To be sincere here, I think Counter Intelligence should be on armies that go for 12 orders, so while Tunguska is, for me, OK, vanilla Nomads with counter Intelligence (in a unit that costs about as much as the Krakot, and you don't care what happens to him after deployment, unless you use the puppets too) is not.
    Aleph more or less is the same, because it's already an elite faction, but with Netrods, 8pts remotes and the need to deploy remotes as basic infantry for OSS, it can go for 15 really hard orders and keep the hard hitting, maybe moving the CounterIntelligence to the Apsaras would have been better (and make him more of a "cop" since he already looks like Jensen from Deus Ex... remove the Sensor profile from the Devas, give it to the Shukra with an option to get a synchronized remote, another CoC profile, and the Lt for OSS only, and call it a day. The Devas would receive a Strategos 1 profile instead of the Sensor, only for OSS).
    And CA is in the same boat Aleph is, CounterIntelligence can be excused, but also abused :(

    Note however that these are somehow random thoughts, I haven't spent much time on them.
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    This is a good example for looking at your posts and thinking how others might see them. A Mentor starts at 22pt without Infiltration, Mines or AutoMediKit (compared to a roughly equivalent Shrouded option). That's not a cheap cheerleader, let alone an absurdly cheap one. Every time you post hyperbole as if it were objective fact that nobody could possibly disagree with, you alienate other posters, presumably when you're thinking that they should be agreeing with you.

    Caledonian Volunteers for 6pt, now that's an absurdly cheap cheerleader.

    If I was playing Sheskiin in generic Combined I'd be far more likely to take her as LT and a Caliban CoC for +7 points and -1 SWC compared to Sheskiin and the cheapest Mentor.
     
  7. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust

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    To try to move the conversation in a more constructive direction:

    Who will you put in Patsy's Haris now? I'm thinking about a Kamau Paramedic, or an ORC BSG.
     
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  8. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Heavy weapon (ORC or Kamau depending on what I need) and Kamau Paramedic/FO or ORC Tinbot
     
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  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Considering what he brings he is, especially the puppeteer although I am quite alright with the Aleph version, even if I don’t like the mechanic.
    I’m also inclined to point that you seem to forget the context here, compared to the traditional Lt.’s of CA I think I made my case of why, comparably speaking, he is absurdly cheap. I don’t care about a Volunteer because it’s not the same thing, nor is pushing its army into an objectionable power level.

    Also a viable method, which also gives further credence to my postulate about Vanilla CA being in too good of a position
     
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  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Then you're not talking about 'cheerleaders' as it's normally used. And I still don't think he's 'absurdly' cheap, even within the context of G:Mnemonica LTs.
     
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  11. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust

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    It could be interesting to toss a Nimbus+ grenade and then boarding shotgun a link team. -6 to dodge against a shotgun template could be brutal.
     
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  12. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Well, they effectively ARE cheerleaders after they served their purpose, similar to cheap Lt.’s, after they just rolled for the Lt. Roll, but no they certainly aren’t Kuang Shi’s, Moderators and what have you.

    But okay, I rest my case, after all I don’t find the mentor detrimental to the game in the same manner as the Fat2 profiles and efficiently trading armies like Haqq/CA.
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    :+1:

    On that point, we should probably let the discussion move back to the original topic... ;-)
     
  14. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

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    The Machinist was decent in the link but its nothing a Kamau can't do better for a marginal points increase. it sucks we lose flexibility on completing test run/ HVT retro engineer card but bringing a Kamau Para is more or less the same with better combat capability.

    I would probably play something like this:
    Varuna Immediate Reaction Division
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3
    PATSY GARNETT Submachine Gun, Nimbus Plus Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 37)
    KAMAU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    KAMAU Heavy Rocket Launcher, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23)

    Compared to the old staple of:

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3
    PATSY GARNETT Submachine Gun, Nimbus Plus Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 37)
    KAMAU HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28)
    MACHINIST (Varuna Div.) (CH: Mimetism, Stealth, Aquatic Terrain) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17)

    2.5 SWC | 164 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Same points cost – similar amount of classifieds but a slightly different battlefield role.
     
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  15. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    While we are on the fireteam topic, I really would like to see in N4 that in order to get the burst bonus and +3BS in a fireteam, someone else in the fireteam must also have the weapon you are using.

    First off it makes sense thematically. Why are you getting extra shots out of your HMG when all the other guys in the fireteam have combi rifles?

    For example, a Kamau HMG in a fireteam of Fusiliers has to have at least one other model in the fireteam with an HMG to get the bonuses. Cheapest one you could get is a Fusi HMG for an extra 8 points and 1 SWC.

    Mixed fireteams are starting to get really dumb. A year ago, you had to invest 180+ points into getting a B5 BS16+ HMG. Now you can do it for as little as 70-80. I think it’s power creep on a massive scale and too widely available. Forcing a team to spend points and SWC on a duplicate SWC weapon to get the bonuses would go a long to toward curbing the power creep. Right now there are no downsides to taking the cheap mixed link for the bonuses, forcing a decision of “is it worth it?” would make fireteam building interesting again.

    Rant over.
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Thematically, the HMG trooper is concentrating on shooting their HMG, knowing that the rest of the Fireteam have got their back covered. It's not about multiple troopers shooting HMGs.
     
  17. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust

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    This would only make things even more complicated.
     
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  18. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Well, this kind of FT existed already in CHA and was partially existing in QK too and made them some of the most deadly and cost effective active turn FTs because of this. Now, pretty everyone has this kind of FT so, it gives room for things we wouldn't be able to see before.
    The game is swinging on more active possibilities but on the other hand, there are powerful defensive options too. Sectorials have access to deadlier weapons but Vanilla armies have now so much more options that I think those all balance each other. The game is changing but I wouldn't say there is powercreep. It's more changing everyone's habits so you now are using options you were discarding before (who said Bolts?).

    Everyone is crying after Kamau Sniper for now but they are forgetting that Nisses are getting their mixed FT too when SWF will come and I don't think a B16 B5 MSV2 Mimetic HMG is going to be nice to face too. Take your time to learn how to deal with the Kamau Sniper because Nisse Sniper will be exactly as deadly with cheap FT too.
     
    #78 Ayadan, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  19. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust

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    Yep. The Kamau is Varuna's queen of ARO. But all will fear the Nisse HMG as the king of the active turn.
     
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  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    MO rolls over in it's grave ;P