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Patsy in the core?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Rocker, May 8, 2019.

  1. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    I actually like Patsy as a data tracker who needs to survive in Varuna. Her extra wound and armor alongside wildcard actually make her a huge pain to kill. Plus, outside of TAGs and the Montesa, she's got the highest CC in the sectorial. At a whopping 16.

    To be fair though, a Kamau, with its shock immunity and general awesomeness can be good as a datatracker. It does suffer from crits more than an ORC though.
     
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  2. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Whole thread tldr:

    1: If you need to keep your Data Tracker alive then it's great to have them in a Fireteam.

    2: If you need to keep your Data Tracker alive then it's great for them to have more than one Wound.

    3: If you need to keep your Data Tracker alive then it's great to have above average defensive attributes.

    None of the above prevents you from doing everything you would otherwise do with deployment of the Data Tracker and other models to help keep that Data Tracker alive.

    Therefore Patsy is a solid choice for a Data Tracker in Varuna for any mission where you need your Data Tracker to survive, although you might want to consider an ORC HMG if you need the Data Tracker to cross the table (either in the Fireteam with Patsy or as an alternative Data Tracker).
     
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  3. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Dont start calling ideas dumb when they demonstrably work and i wont point out that they have worked
     
    #43 daboarder, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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  4. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Id actually adjust this.

    If the data tracker needs to survive and you are going first. 1W is probably fine.

    If you need it to do anything else or expect to go second, then 2w is a benefit as is a plan on how to deal with the most likely threat you will face (impersonators vs haqqislam and combined army, or spec fire if facing NCA)
     
  5. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    My dude, your broad and unspecified suggestion were F’ing stupid and dumb AF, not to mention dripping with butthurt condescension, engaging in the conversation with bad faith. The only specified singular (and not suggested nor specified by you) case is not even a case of stacking troopers as it’s about deploying makers, which can even be achieved by deployables. Finally, none of those things you mention really have anything to do with the the trooper surviving because it’s an Orc as opposed to being a fusilier but the thing is, as I’ve said multiple times now, that I don’t give a damn if you chose an Orc or not, just F’ing stop pretending they are any different against Speculos/Fidays and pretend to prove that by using other troopers (or rather, markers) because they mostly aren’t except for corner cases.
    Jammers were also mentioned, which again, has nothing to do with the trooper being Orc or not. And also stop pretending to live in some sort of a fantasy clown world, were people, with any skill what so ever, are ever going to engage or pop their impersonator against you, knowing that they’ll eat 2 shots in the face. That doesn’t happen so stop fooling yourself or other potential new people into thinking that the numbers I brought up were worst case scenarios. That’s laughably wrong.

    Speaking of missing the point, this is really about a clash of philosophy because my play style will lean towards investing more points on protecting the datatracker, rather than having the datatracker beefed up and give you what I like to call a false sense of durability. Not unlike how a Swiss Guard HMG is rarely used in the upper Eastern Europe meta, because they’d rather invest in 2 Hexas or how they rarely use Tarik because they would rather use 2 Khawarij etc.
     
  6. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Hmm?

    As you know, it's mechanically impossible to stop an Impersonator from getting at least one order's worth of offensive impact. You're not likely to fully Reveal an Impersonator in ARO, so the Impersonator will almost always go where it wants to go, and get at least one order.

    Having 2 Wounds,higher stats stats, etc. helps make sure you survive that initial attack, so that your Jammers or whatever else get their moment of non-Marker, Broken Stealth ARO interaction. You can invest all the points in defense that you want, but stopping an Impersonator from getting one order's worth of attacks against your Designated Target is challenging. It isn't likely. Even with careful screening vs CC, there's still the option of just spraying a shotgun blast through your screening units, or blasting your datatracker directly in the case of Camo screeners.

    So survivability and ARM can help make sure that one Order of attack doesn't remove your Datatracker from play

    It doesn't mean you always want to field a Heavy Infantry, or make him your Datatracker. But in this strict context of having your Datatracker survive your opponent's Impersonator Alpha Strike while supported with other ARO troops, it's helpful if the Datatracker has high PH, high BS, 2 Wounds, and decent ARM. None of those are disadvantageous.

    As for the Eastern European Meta...
    I'm familiar with the prevailing dynamics of the meta. I know the focus on 1 Wounders, high order count, and the general aversion to "trap" high-cost centerpiece units.

    But then you begin this discussion with "going second is way more important than having a durable datatracker."

    That's true. No doubt there. Going second is definitely the best move.

    But no player, and especially no PanO player, has control over the turn order. As a result, you understand the need for an alternate plan. One useful component of that plan is having the option for a durable Datatracker. You won't always need one, you won't always want one... I personally think ORCs in VIRD are shockingly poor compared to the same points spent on Kamau HMGs... But those extra Wounds and durability are very helpful in missions where my ORC has to survive my opponent's turn in order for me to win the Round.
     
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  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    so your swearing and attitude aside, Investing in protecting the DT as well as investing in the DT being tough are not mutually exclusive.
    Infact they are the same thing. All the points you invest in protecting something as fragile as an 1W LI trooper give benefit, the Helots, the Jammers, the Links and the Minelayers, Fugazi and Evos ect. All add a layered defence.

    But that is for the most part additive to the 1W trooper you are using as your Data tracker. By investing in a tougher data tracker such as an ORC or Patsy you add a level of force multiplication to the equation. Suddenly the opponent doesnt just have to clear our the layered defense, now they need to at the end of it fight a unit that is tough (And if positioned properly with proper layered defense) that minimizes the assasin plays own advantages.

    Why does the ORCs 2W and ARM4 and BS14 matter to all this you ask? (And you do ask) Well lets take that jammer example, an ORC DT minimizes the chances that the opponent will succeed in whatever assasination attempt they make, your other defences such as jammers helots ect are there to ensure that the opponent only gets that one shot (if they get it at all)

    The idea (in particular vs Impersonators) is to systematically strip their bonuses, to force them into fights they are likely to win (but might lose) over and over and over before they get to the DT. If you present an assasin wiht a 50/50 shot on a data tracker then they may or may take it, But if you make that a 50/50 shot of making their deployment, then a 50/50 shot of getting smoke down, then a 50/50 shot of revealing that camo/decoy/killing the sacrificial guard (while not being jammered) before they get the final 50/50 shot on the DT. Then suddenly they are looking at significantly worse odds of the whole sequence of events going the way they want. And they need to win every single one of those interactions to meet their "win state" in a dead DT. The PanO player only needs to win 1, and has therefore higher chances that the assasination play wont work.
     
  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Cannot like this enough, well said @barakiel
     
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  9. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    In the context of VIRD, which is the only context which matters for this conversation as it's the only place where Patsy is going to be in a Fireteam (at the moment, anyway), it's clear that there are advantages to taking ORCs as Data Tracker for missions where they need to survive.

    There is an argument regarding the extent to which the investment required for an ORC Data Tracker, especially Patsy, is worthwhile compared to other potential choices. But for some missions, where victory is entirely contingent on the survival of the Data Tracker like Frostbite, there is little question that this investment is worthwhile. This is only more true against opponents with strong alpha strike/assassination potential.

    As @barakiel notes above, you can never be sure if you will have the first turn. This is especially true of PanOceania players with our limited Wip, but in a one-dice-faceoff nobody can be confident. And even if you have the first turn the risk of losing a Data Tracker along the way remains higher if you don't invest in protecting them in a variety of ways (some of which involve position, and other units, but some of which are contingent on the unit themselves).

    A Data Tracker in a fireteam, with multiple wounds and higher defensive statistics is always going to be safer than one who does not have those advantages, because none of that statement precludes using other tools to help protect them just as well (and in many cases better) than an unlinked, one wound trooper with weak attributes.
     
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  10. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    Now, now, there’s no need for that kind of hostility ;) After all, when choosing between a Ferrari or two Audis, there’s a clear winner.
     
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    They cannot.
    They cannot place the mine with the camo token in the trigger area ever during deployment
    Unlike the deploy equipment skills minelayer does not have an exception for valid targets.

    Blocking the speculo minelayers with helots and zulus is absolutely a valid and legal tactic
     
    #51 daboarder, May 10, 2019
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  12. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Maybe I'm also too stupid to understand but by your own example 27.48% chance to kill doesn't seem "just as likely to die" as 89.41% by any reasonable measure.

    And that's before you do anything else, like prevent the Impersonator getting into CC with blocking camo markers or whatever.

    Sure mono makes it more equivalent if they do get into CC, but only some impersonators have that, and getting there is preventable (or at least possible to make difficult), as has been shown.

    I'm not sure what upset you here exactly but I think a more open minded and respectful approach might be more useful to such conversations.
     
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  13. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I think that our top players should stay civil between them. You are all at the top for a reason. That's not because Eastern Europe is as active as Spain that it means Oceania should be discarded. You all have your meta thing, including tables and way of thinking the game.

    As about the question itself, yes Patsy can be a good Datatracker. But I think you should rather choose your DT at the end of the deployment rather than when making your lists. Being able to adapt is the whole key of natural selection after all.
     
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  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You probably missed but we spoke about situation when the camos block access to a non-camo trooper thus making the mine deployment legal (there is still valid ORC in the mine explosion area).

    [​IMG]

    So if X and Y are camos then you are in world of hurt if enemy has Speculo Minelayer.
     
  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    If your gonna talk rules. I think you should reread them.

    You cannot do this using the minelayer skill eciu.
    And you said deployment not after.

    Screenshot_20190510-194932_Chrome.jpg so yeah thanks
     
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  16. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    MINELAYER DEPLOYMENT SKILL
    Optional
    REQUIREMENTS
    • Any enemy Camouflage and Hiding Marker cannot be inside the Trigger Area of the Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment when it is deployed.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Minelayer

    It could drop one after deployment obvs, but an Orc is a lot more likely to survive that than a Warcor too
     
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  17. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    My 2c from the other side of the barricade (CA player here, do you fancy some sepsitorization, btw?)

    In a Tournament, no one in the rights of his mind would sacrifice a Minelayer Speculo to roll for infiltration. DO NOT LURE HER. If you manage to group something like massed blobs without a nearby Camo (which prevent the Mine to be deployed!), i can try my luck and roll. Otherwise it is always WAY MUCH safer and reliable to walk in the DZ from just outside...
     
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  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Ha so apparently Minelayer and deploy mine have different rules regarding their deployment.

    And I'm wrong (which shows how often I play factions with Minelayer ;P).

    Though truth be told its hilarious that they both "normal" mine deployment and "minelayer" deployment have different rules.

    Thanks for correcting me on this one :)
     
  19. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Yeah they do. Maybe dont get in arguments unless youve checked your rules. Like i do
     
  20. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I was really wondering why a thread with such an unassuming title can get derailed so bad, I should have known better, obviously...

    I guess I need to remind, personal attacks are not tolerated and I personally do not appreciate such behaviour in the forums, can you really not discuss in a civilised manner?

    So do I really need to remind everybody different metas shape opinions and some metas are completely opposites of each other?
     
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