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PanOceania: State of the Faction, and what's next?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by barakiel, May 30, 2019.

  1. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    To be honest, I'm feeling really burned out of PanO at the moment right now. Varuna is fun but I feel so boxed in when I try writing lists for them. They have a decent amount of options but leaving Helots/ZC/EB at home in favor of crocs/ORCs feels like im doing myself a disservice and just including these models for the sake of not always running the same lists. On top of it my usual opponents are probably feeling a similar burn on me playing Varuna.

    I haven't touched my Acon collection in months – I tried the Aquila FTO when it came out but wasnt really feeling it. I might go back and play with some MO again for awhile, I'm in the mood for a smaller list I think. lately I've been playing my MRRF consistently.

    I want a challenge – I like challenges. Playing Varuna doesn't feel like one. It doesn't feel like a challenge running around with a BS16 mimetism HMG or zone dominating ARO piece. I don't know, maybe I'm just zonked on the faction right now, maybe I've over played it
     
  2. Mallet

    Mallet Member

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    I am hoping for a svalheim sectroral on the horizon with Valkyrie
     
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  3. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Try MO ;) They're definitely the most restricted of our sectorials, though they are still very decent.

    @MrNailbrain: Sheskiin is by no means an autoinclude in SEF, she's too expensive for that. And placing her in Nox fireteam anchors her a bit. She's better when operating on her own, presenting enemy with a completely different threat aside from the fireteam.

    Regarding PanO future: I'd like to see MO revisited to fix last few problems:
    • Teutons fixed; again, I think they'd work best as a heavy warband; SMGs, DTWs, BS 13. Obvious place for Eclipse Grenades
    • OS linkability expanded, so that hacker and MSV2 Spitfire could be part of the fireteam
    • Magisters being able to join Hospitaller links as well as Teuton ones
    • Santiagos getting the shotgun back
    • MO version of Father-Engineer
    • Father-Knights getting some tweaks to provide something more than high ARM and BTS. My vote is on Number 2 and Lieutenant L2
    • More NCOs (Father-Knight and De Fersen could use it)
    I'd also like our AD troops made slightly different from each other; now they're almost carbon copies. My preference would be to leave the Crusaders as they are, and making Akalis more stabby and less shooty; BS 12, but usable CC level and either MA or NBW.

    Another thing would be to look closer at Auxbots and expanding both their type list and availability. Some of them could be sectorial-exclusive, similarly to VORCs. I'd actually prefer this over getting even more new units.
     
  4. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    @MrNailbrain
    I can relate to your view regarding Wildcard. Am I glad to have it? Yeah, it's very strong. But thematically, i would have been fine with a Kamau SMG or BSG filler profile, sub-20 points, and forced Kamau to pay quite a bit more to access 5-man fire bonuses.

    That being said, I do think the internal balance of the Sectorial is pretty good. I like how viable different units and profiles are within the Sectorial. I think some Varuna profiles are simply dominant (ZC Jammer, MSV2 Kamau) but I do like that pretty much everything is viable within the Sectorial. I think that different scenario lineups can help encourage different ways for players to engage with listbuilding. I also think, as time goes on, that the counters to Jammer, MSV2 links, etc will become more prevalent and properly understood by other players. I'm seeing a lot more Nimbus and Veteran in my opponent's lists than I ever did before. I think talented players naturally adapt to whatever's strong.

    @MikeTheScrivener
    I think Crocs tend to be undervalued. I've been fielding one pretty consistently. The advantage here is that, when you have 5-6 Camo tokens on the table after Deployment, being able to spring up a Hidden Deployment Specialist with mines is hugely powerful. Enemy midfield troops tend to congregate in areas where our Jammers and Helots are not present. Mechanically, they tend to fixate on avoiding Jammer and Neurocinetic AROs.

    This often means the Croc can appear and get work done, and even experienced opponents are often shockingly vulnerable to that Hidden Deployment presence.

    As for ORCs... Acquisition, Unmasking, Frostbyte, PowerPack, these are all missions where it's helpful to have a slightly tougher Objective Camper / Datatracker. I haven't felt good trusting that role to a 1-Wound trooper. Mission lineup can do a lot to make ORCs more appealing.

    I really like where Acon is at though. It has a lot of the things that make VIRD strong, but it also has some really nice flexible choices that make it fun for ITS. Good example.

    On the broader topic of challenges:
    There are a lot of sharp, competitive players out there who are using a variety of factions. They definitely aren't holding their game back when it comes to playing competitive and interesting armies. I applaud the notion of playing softer, more challenging Sectorials versus newer players, or in emerging metas. For big events though, I'm good using the most competitive tools available to my armies.
     
    #44 barakiel, Jun 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The Croc is "just" an infiltrating TO Camo guy. He's not really doing a lot of fancy new stuff. They're still fucking awesome though, just like Spektrs. A Spektr FO has been my MVP too many times for me to ever discount a Croc.
     
  6. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    For sure. For all the Croc Man haters, I'd mention that Camo Infiltrators never stopped being useful. And in this case, I think they're extremely useful in the context of Varuna.

    Mines are really helpful since they ignore some of the common counters to both Jammer and MSV2. A Camo guy can stealth or run past all the Jammers, then trip on a mine and get wrecked.

    Also, being able to press a midfield console using just 1 Order is a nice bit of order efficiency. Zulu Cobras are great, but that FDL1 isn't any kind of big deal. Getting a proper Infiltrator really helps.
     
  7. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    TO Camo infiltrator does a lot of things other VIRD units can't do. X-Visor is a cherry on top, both in standard and SF firefights.
     
  8. xammy

    xammy Keeper of Random Facts and Strong Opinions

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    I've been putting the X-visor to use when I field crocmen. People don't expect combirifles to reach that far with that kind of effectiveness. It's often easy enough to catch something out of cover too, which means you are looking at shooting across the table with a potential surprise shot with the same effectiveness as if they were in cover and closer.
     
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  9. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    I agree 100%. The new mixed fireteams are cool and all, but I think it makes a lot of profiles functionally obsolete. I have very little reason to take a Bagh Mari Fireteam when I can stuff a bunch of regulars behind my sniper and hmg for waaaay fewer points. My reason for taking Rao (a sixth body for my fireteam) is completely gone. Although the machinist may have already done him in.
    I love the idea of special characters or a handful of elite troops having wildcard but leaving the rest out.

    As for the new Varuna units, they’ve done a phenomenal job creating a really solid selection of units.
    I have to say, I think Varuna does raw firepower supremely well. For my money, Acontecimento is a better army for ITS. Hands down.
     
  10. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    had I the funds I'd print your post and send via physical mail to CB thousands of times. Perhaps that would get the point across , considering it being posted on the forums in non physical format thousands of times doesnt seem to quiet make it
     
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  11. Tongfa

    Tongfa proudly selling out since 1991

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    This sounds like such a first world problem.
     
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  12. Tongfa

    Tongfa proudly selling out since 1991

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    Its a Ryuken-9 that can cap objectives and go invisible. Crocs are demi-gods of a unit. They just live in a sectorial filled with gods.
     
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  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Crocs are one of the few to minelayers in the game. Additionally in a faction with some of the best camo offence or defense pieces in thw game.

    Putting that mine down in reserve allows for hug ammounts of head play
     
  14. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I've long preferred the Croc men over Pano's AD troops. Our AD before the echo bravo weren't that great. And Crocmen are especially good for Pano. Its probably our best assault hacker given our factions lack of repeaters. Echo Bravos are definitely the best AD troops we got now. But Crocmen still provide that wonderful combination of infiltrating specialist and superior gunfighter that makes the unit a bit of a toolbox. There are certainly missions where you want some infiltrating units so Crocmen are very useful. Also, given our lack of smoke, camo units are great for maneuvering around ARO threats when you don't have the orders to just blast them all off the table.

    Also, I always found the combination of FO and deployable repeaters a really nice profile. If only VIRID had better hackers. Still, it can be situationally good for ARO hacking.
     
    #54 Death, Jun 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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  15. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    Croc Men are one of the reasons I held onto playing vanilla. The other part is Nisses.
     
  16. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Something I still fail to understand is this thirst for Teutonic Knights to be WB or act as so. I know they have a disturbing story but we should remember that they still are PanO troopers. CC is not something you want to reach most of the time and this must be also true for Teutons.
    Teutons are more lightly armed and armored knights with throwable hard hitting weapons. What they could get to be more interesting is more diversity in how they achieve this. Combi rifle and panzerfaust is nice but the problem is that they are too much on the same spot as Magisters. Giving them a Combi Breaker on non specialist options would be good. Or play with weapon mods you can put on a Combi rifle. A Combi+LRL option would definitely make the Teutonic Knights more interesting to play while still keeping their short/midrange focus. Maybe introducing access to Akrylat Kanone, Flammenspeer or Blitzen in their weaponry would make them more diverse too.
     
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  17. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    I mean im a fan of em currently for the combo of bs14 in addition to low cost and good CC ability.
    But i like what you are saying ayadan.

    I guess its worth noting i see all tueton profiles baring the base apccw variant ad offering something to a list.
     
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  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    @Ayadan because they're already positioned to work that way, as they're the most CC-oriented knights. Only right now it works poorly; they have no proper means of closing fast with the enemy, and their weapon choices clash with their CC skill. Pushing them further in this direction would make them different enough from other knights to make them really worth choosing, and giving us a different tool in our unit roster. CB's approach that "PanO should only specialize in shooting" is exactly the mindset that caused the faction design to calcify in the first place.

    I don't buy argument that we can't have a proper CC/CQB (because warbands are primarily a CQB unit; their task is to get close and shoot multiple troopers at once, CC is a secondary consideration) unit because we're PanO. I'd say making them our warbands is exactly the thing PanO would do; instead of using large number of poorly trained and insubordinate (aside from CC) troopers with cheapest of equipments, we would use fewer but highly trained and motivated regular troops armed and equipped with the best tools for their task.
     
  19. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    In which world are they the most CC oriented of our Knights? Because they have Berserk? This skill isn't what makes a unit CC-oriented in my book. It is just another CC tool for a short/midrange shooting unit which gives it a way to win CC against light CC specialists like Ninjas, Shaolin and Myrmidons (not the officers except if you have the EXP CCW). In fact, in CC, they complement well the MA coming from Magisters, who are the ones who are the most close to a WB we can get in PanO along with the Montesa.
    What defines the most Teutons isn't their CC21 and Berserk, it is their BS14 and their tactical flexibility due to Panzerfausts along with spitfires and combi rifles. And I think that's what CB should improve. Actually, they are rather OK in this niche but the problem is that between AVA and their cost, you'll likely field only one or two Teutons in a list and if you want reactive power, you'll need to field a Santiago Spitfire to make the active turn work. What I suggest is to add some profiles which can compete with the Spitfire profile and Santiago while still staying in this kind tactical flexibility and hard hitting, low burst, weapons like a combi+LRL could be. If you want something at close range with DTW, you should mind more about a Combi+LFT profile with Akrylat Kanone, for example.
     
  20. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Boarding shotguns, SMGs, RedFury, and LRL would all be weapons that would suit I think

    Grenades or Heavy Flamers would be awesome
     
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