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PanOceania in N4

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    Could we at some point stop rediscussing old topics and yelling that people who do not agree with you are too dumb to play and just use this thread to collect suggestions?
    Even if you don't agree with someone i don't think we need 2 pages discussing the same thing over and over in a N4 thread.
     
  2. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, it takes a lot of in-game experience and knowledge to succeed with a Tag list VS order spam lists. Not to mention learning how to avoid hackers. It's not that the tools for TAGs aren't there; they just aren't as intuitive as order spam tools.

    It's a tricky situation, balance-wise, and I don't envy CB for having to try to solve it for N4.
     
    Urobros and Ayadan like this.
  3. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    It's not a bad thing for aspects of a game to have a slightly higher skill floor, it allows for people to always have something to learn, whether or not they are willing to do so is something else.
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    How do you think the Malaysians and Indonesians feel?

    I think it'd be neat if the ORC corp was actually a NZ outfit. Especially since, well, the LotR movies were filmed there, and, well, orcs...

    Fluff wise, PanO is supposed to rely a lot on TAGs to make their military machine work. I think it'd be neat to see some TAG NCO or TA profiles for PanO, like how Invincible Army gets NCO to funnel Lt orders through their HI and Tac Awareness to take extra orders with their HI fireteams.
     
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  5. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    You are, indeed, correct.

    There are real-world nations/ethnicities that are not yet represented in the game.

    #SaintLucianRegimentNowOrCBIsRacist
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  6. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    And a Windies/Soca Warriors Scuball team!
     
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  7. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    My big issue with this style of balance is that it's improved TAGs that were already overperforming (Tik, Sphinx, Marut) while not really making the very bad TAGs (Guijia, Anaconda, Iguana) any more playable.

    For some TAGs, those types of buffs won't be enough, because there's no reason to play them in the first place. For TAGs that are already in a good place, the buffs are nice, but they would be a consideration for list building even without the buffs.
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, it's kinda different for PanO, considering that the presence of these two populous SEA Muslim countries as half of the founding nations of PanO seems to be continually ignored.
     
    AngryPanda likes this.
  9. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Well, for having been the receiving end of such TAGs, I can say that they now hit really harder than before. Yes, they look like subpar compared to those with higher tech but they (at least Anaconda and Iguana) this disposable aspect due to their rather low cost that makes them rather effective as suicidal units. Each time I faced one which dealt a huge amont of damage, it was one which was send to kill the most it could in my DZ. They both really aren't designed to face other TAGs excepted maybe Seraph or Tik but rather to be played as super mobile, super armoured HIs. I never considered the Iguana to be bad. It's a frustrating TAG to face because after hunting down the machine, you have to hunt down the operator who is hidding somewhere and still packs a damn HMG.

    Anaconda could receive a point decrease and Guijia a piece of equipment to make it shinier but I think they don't need so much.

    As for PanO TAGs, as said before in this thread, I think (excepted for the Uhlan's Feuerbach which needs a help in active to me) that they are all in a good place. BS15 is strong by itself but we have always something added to make them as the best TAGs easily fieldable. Maruts and Avatar can be better, putting one in a list is a lot more restrictive to their army than it is for us to field a Dragao or a Jotum.
    So no, I don't think TAGs in general need help. Some of them maybe need something shiny to make people consider them but PanO TAGs aren't concerned by this. The more the people will get used to play them good, the more we will see PanO players fielding TAGs. They aren't noob friendly but seasoned players should be able to make them work good.

    EDIT: one idea is maybe more Duo profiles on troops which have the AVA to support it in Vanilla. I've tried it once at the moment and carrying a specialist along a heavy weapon really worth the cost if the units doing this is already interesting. Giving Duo to Nisses could make Paramedic and Hacker profiles interesting.
     
  10. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Without having no idea what N4 could be, some similar to N2 going to N3, or something more deep, with really really big changes (and yes, n3 bring to us a lot of hard changes, but still the mechanics will be pretty similar to N2) If n4 brings to us changes and improvements over n3, this kind of discussion have a lot of sense if not, well, not so much.

    I will add to the chat thinking on n4 as something not to far from n3. As others said before, Pano is de TAG faction, so we need some changes which allow us to include these killing machines with really chances "to have a fair fight against any kind of enemy". The change of weapons range was one of the best decisions that corvus did, but it wasn't this the only changes in most of the tags. The change of ranges came with lost of weapons options and a little increment in SWC. So, where before we could havee a TAG+Hacker for defense + others thing, now we have 0.5 less. Not so much, but enough to make some list much more TAG dependants, because we have now to renounce to that HI or that Hacker, or even that IM, because 2 or 1.5 SWC will be too much added to the 2.5.

    This kind of things plus the higher table presence AP ammunition, plus a lot of things to do, not only shoot, make the "only one group list" (with TAG) a little obsoletes when face a spam list.

    If we observe most of the list with TAG, this will be one with long range weapon (or non risk weapon), probably only 2SWC and less than 95 points. So, in Pano only 3 TAGs compliance this requirements: Squalo, Tik and Dragao.

    So, in N4 I will hope for adjustements which make the Pano TAGs more attractive to players and well balanced. In N2 Tags were true killing machines, but in N3 most of them are only a big target which makes a lot of damage to de rival when goes down. None of this scenarios are desireables in the future N4.

    Maybe add some chooseable options to allow players "customized" his TAGs could be something great and do TAGs more playabled and funny.
     
  11. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    While I do agree, I get the impression from newer players that it's frustrating. A lot of them come to the game explicitly for the TAGs, then they are told and shown that they need to play twice or triple the amount of games as a "normal" list to learn them.

    Even something simple like giving TAGs an extra order generated could potentially go a long way to closing the gap. It would give players an extra bit of wiggle room, to make up for how difficult TAGs are to pilot. I'd prefer for this "TAG order" to be it's own thing, though. An order spendable only on the TAG while also not being Irregular to avoid converting to a Regular order.

    TAGs aren't unusable as is, but lowering the skill floor for them isn't a bad thing. Especially when the impression nearly across the board is that they are weak, when they really aren't. I blame "normal" miniature game mindsets for this, where games like 40k have so many subpar or bad units. They tend to only bring their shooting and a single tool/rule to the table per unit, making it much more clear what the purpose/quality of each is.

    Meanwhile, Infinity rarely has "bad" units due to the sheer amount of tools even the mediocre units bring. Some are just more intuitive than others. Infinity isn't perfect; don't get me wrong. It just has many more tools per unit, where even our weaker units have solid utility. Especially with how many profiles are available per unit, mixed with the loose proxy rules.


    Not sure if I agree on that last bit, with customizable TAGs. More TAG profiles could maybe fill this design space, but lack of good gear/options isn't really their issue.

    I'm also iffy on the SWC increase. Most TAG SWC costs are pretty close to their equivalent in troops, with many guns being straight up better versions of a same-costed base weapon. Examples are the Multi HMG vs HMG, Heavy Grenade Launcher, etc.
     
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  12. Ender101

    Ender101 Member

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    I think when it comes to TAGs, especially for less experienced players or players that only play casually, that they are a negative purchase experience.

    I like TAGs from a thematic perspective, and they always look great on the table, but I do wish they were easier to use, and would welcome a new approach in their design. I have used TAGs in all games not counting Icestorm or the like, and the only one that didn’t disappoint was the Jotum (Iguana, Clausewitz and Tiklabang were taken in other games) due to its inherent toughness and flexible weaponry.

    Even if you ‘can’ get TAGs to work with a great deal of high-level play, that doesn’t make it a well-designed aspect of the game, especially when they are often one of the biggest draws for newer players. It is fine to have some TAGs require a high skill ceiling to get value from them and get the payoff, but when the vast majority do that it is not fun for the folks who bought them (and let’s face it they don’t exactly come with WARNING: THIS IS HARD TO USE stickers on the box), and I know of people leaving the game instead of sticking with it or only coming back after a long hiatus due to their TAG experiences.

    A new player reads the TAG rules and sees nothing but penalties, they put them on the table and they get slapped by their fragility or susceptibility to being hacked. Can they ‘get good?’ and get value eventually, sure, but why should those pieces be so punishing and difficult to use in the first place? Especially when you can much more inherent value from HI with comparable stats and weaponry for less points.

    A lot of the arguments with the Cutter vs the Swiss Guard are interesting, but ultimately it seems to come down to personal preference of the player, and the Cutter requires a great deal more finesse. I’d also be interested in hearing folks’ opinions about the non-Multi HMG TAGs, why take a Tiklabang or Ulhan over the HI? Looking at other factions like Nomads who lack that aspect, why would one take those TAGs over their HI?

    I don’t think many are arguing that TAGs are useless, but they are disproportionally difficult to use for their points. Some folks argue that they are ‘fine’ and sure, maybe they are at the higher levels of play, but not everyone plays at that level or in groups that strive for that level.

    Ultimately, the game isn’t ‘just’ for the hardcore players, and it isn’t ‘just’ for the casual players, it needs to appeal to both to keep the game growing, so there should be middle ground with TAGs to make them rewarding, and dare I say ‘fun’ to play instead of acting as barrier to entry that is met with a shrug and ‘get good’ which only adds to an already negative play experience they came to discuss in the first place.

    With a new edition on the horizon I don’t think it is unreasonable for people to hope that TAGs will become easier use and generate value from without being an expert on the game, just as it is not unfair for others to hope the pendulum doesn’t swing too hard the other way and make them required super pieces. In the end ‘fine’ is one thing, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement, and a brand-new edition is the best time to make those changes.
     
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  13. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    While I do agree with the rest of the post, I do think that you're doing the Uhlan a disservice here. For 30 more points than the hmg swiss, you trade TO for regular camo but gain an additional "wound", slightly better armor, Fatality L1, 2 more inches on first movement, a specialist in a pinch, and a Feurbach. The Feurbach is particularly notable since it doesn't cost additional SWC.

    It's one hell of a good unit, and you're underrating it a bit lol.
     
  14. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    I also see the Uhlan as underperforming. You either go the way cheaper swiss or directly use the cutter (16 points for TO camo +2ARM and Multi-HMG). I don't see him having a place between those two.
     
  15. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    What Sectorial has a choice between the Uhlan or Cutter, unless you're going vanilla? Not to mention how you're ignoring the loss of the Feurbach along with the increase of .5 SWC. The Feurbach certainly makes the Uhlan not miss the Multi HMG very much.
     
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  16. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    You underestimate how good burst is. And how many missions/equipment have/create saturation zones.
     
    #96 CabalTrainee, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  17. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    The Uhlan isn't useless, but at the same time I agree it's squeezed out pretty hard by competition both above and below.

    I've run it in NCA, but I'd never consider it seriously in Vanilla.

    This actually feeds into something I think the Uhlan highlights well and I'd like to see changed in N4. The cost of secondary weapons. I think that there needs to be more of a discount offered for secondary weapons, not just in SWC (which are already hand adjusted for balance across the whole game) but also in their points.

    The Uhlan is hurt by paying a chunk of change for a Feuerbach which is only sometimes useful.
     
    CabalTrainee likes this.
  18. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, but again, you'll never face the choice between Uhlan and Cutter unless you're in Vanilla.

    Not to mention how you're straight up wrong anyway lol. Multi HMG only has burst 1 on the non-normal ammo types, compared to Burst 2 on the Feurbach. The normal ammo does have shock though, I'll grant you that.

    Plus Feurbach has a +0 at long range while multi HMG has - 3.
    Screenshot_2019-08-13-21-48-19.png

    I think you were the one underestimating burst, fam. Unless I'm missing something here.
     
  19. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    To be honest i have no clue what you are talking about. Who talked about ammo types so far?

    But be my guest:
    Burst 4 with AP vs Burst 2 with Ap+DA. That's exactly the same amount of possible damage with nearly equal armor rolls (+1 dmg on Multi-hmg).
     
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  20. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    Feuerbach is pretty useful against anything with ARM 5+, especially combined with Camo. Swiss is more cost-efficient as high BS HMG platform, but Uhlan is a better toolbox.
     
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