Yes, just as I posted the comment I remembered that one of the Mobile Brigadas that has the tinbot is a hacker, and that yes, any Corregidor list can have multiple hackers. Consider my previous post a very optimistic scenario. 9 out of 10 times you'll be screwed in that situation.
If we are talking about all problems, let me mention one, that makes me worry. Our support specialists (engineers and doctors) have wip 12. The lowest among other units of the same speciality in all human sphere. Makes feel shame for “technologically advanced” faction. Are PanO medicine is the worst? Not haqqislamian of course, those are grate (and I really like their tricks in this direction), but should it be at least medium 13 wip?.. (The other moment is ammunition cassettes on guns... but may be you could convince me, that new form that is bent to another direction could be useful. I am still looking for science fiction in infinity x). But to be fair, we are one of the least factions, that have scabbards for the swords. Mostly. Definitely wip more than 12.)
I am not asking for smoke for Pano. But worrying about Pano having smoke sounds silly in a game where Atalanta exsists.
I highly disagree at this point. Moving on maybe is very simple for some, but for others (me included) that means throwing away hours and hours of playing and learning and building and painting an army you´d love to play. It´s not like PanO lost a huge bunch of units and is not playable as it used to be, it´s the game evolving around the faction with some other armies adepting more. Maybe I am a bit emotional here, but i don´t think, that all Players decide what to play based on the specific rules and special skills... But maybe thats just me. The GdA has 2 main problems: For one his limited accessability (Vanilla and SAA, with the second beeing a OOP army) and secondly that he isbasicly a BS15 spitfire plattform. Nothing more. No special rules, no nothing. BS15 and the Bot. And thats something a mimetism BS12 unit can evenly match. For the cost of 40 to 45 points thats a luxuriant investment, especially in an army where he has to compete with the same baseline but with Mimetism-6 or MSV3 or Inspiring leadership or..... non the less, obscuring the enemies vision is a tool not to underestimate, for that´s how you decide, which fights you pick and which to avoid (at least in your turn) I have an Idea (and plz don´t start hate-talking me for trying to justify CB´s decision to not give PanO visioncanceling options, it´s just an idea): Imagine beeing a hyperpower. You KNOW that you are the greatest shit since sliced bread. You know, everything you touch turns to be great. You know, everything your army is the best, because you are the best, your weapons are the best, your gear is the best,..... Sooooo why try to hide behind such pathetic things like a cloud, smoky or electromagnitic-white-noicy? Are you a freakin ariadnan peasant with their petty smoke bombs? Are you a dishonorable filthy nomad deckhand hiding behind his dirty sorcery shit like the swindlers they are? Are you p!ssing your pheromons everywhere like this artichoked-headed threesome-lovers? No, you are the God damn pineapple....no....PINNACLE OF HUMANITY. You point at something: it dies! You don´t want to be seen? You use your stealth gear and kill it. It has Visors? You use your anti visor gear and kill it! It hides behind his dirty clouds or his leaf-ponchos? You use your MSV-Gear and FREAKIN KILL IT! A bit over-commited here, i know, but a (for me) fun thing to think of this, yelled by a drill-seargents voice Spoiler: Another day, another thread, another opportunity to hate nomads lovin it :-D There is no subforum safe of the gloriouse influence of the great nomad faction. Some people here seem to suffer from serious PTSD inflicted by demon-like Corregidor players not unlike shellshocked WW I trenchsoldiers. The last 2 pages sound like the unplayability of the whole panO faction is solely be the existing of a particular defiance character. That´s a sermon i preach since years. Why fight a hacker behind a firewall with hacking? Why try to win a race against a shark while swimming? I don´t get it. Funny thing tho: the last Jazz i encountered died via hacking behind her damn firewall, killed with a bloody WiP 12 bandit. Yes, it was lucky. But 3 dice are always better than 1.
Statistics literally prove the opposite that in Jazz's case quite often 1 dice is better than the 3 the opponent can throw at her. Here's your Bandit vs Jazz: Any other blatantly incorrect opinions you'd like to vomit up here?
You are right. I like background things and design. For me there should be interesting moments in story. And I like to make some personal background for my little army. Now I am making sketches about Svalarheima garrison in Arkhangelsk region of planet. So, don't want to throw them away because they looks strange in gameplay. PanO have not less place in my heart than tohaa. And still not OOP (ok, here is complicated things...) Imagined. They relaxet too much on this place. Better for them to gather themselves... Even so they should look at opponents and copy some of their useful tricks. But I am asking realistic decisions from the game rules. That is not completely correct. As one person said in one book: "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place." Better to continue moving to not be outdated
You jest, but I reiterate that half my games in serious settings have been against Jazz+Morans lists and every single time that matchup has shaped my tournament experience. If one piece soft-counters my whole Sectorial, doesn't matter if it's a Defiance Hacker or the Avatar or the old Ghazi, if my opponents keep bringing it I'm pushing uphill to have fun with the game. Order efficiency and fun. With the way Hacking works, playing around it can be agonisingly slow and boring (the circumference of ZoC is more than 50 inches, walking around requires just over three uninterrupted orders of nothing but movement) if you don't have good tools to do so, which PanO doesn't really have in good supply, so you try and Hack your way through instead. In the past I used to make extra investments in elite hackers, hidden KHDs, Repeater REMs and the EVO Mulebot to boost my chances (the same way Nomads or Ariadna helped out their shooting with flanking, Smoke and status effects), these days with Hacking pared back to Firewall as Cover and a limited set of programs trying to play into Upgrades is like trying to shoot into a well-positioned MULTI Sniper with Combi Rifles. Without ways to cut the knot you get forced into a positioning-focused, uninteractive game set mostly around reacting to and exploiting the Hacking player's mistakes rather than being able to set your own plans. It's just not much fun for players who want to be aggressive, which with all the valiant Space Knights and arrogant hypercorps really is what PanO sets itself up to attract. I know that this kind of board control is key to the Nomad fantasy, but it's really dull to play against right now without short-range alpha strike pieces because it's hard to punish for being over-aggressive; I've played a casual TTS game against Ariadna with a White Company GML list and my opponent could do nothing without losing any trooper not under a Marker. He had a really bad time and with his list his only option to recover was a strong run with Duroc, which got cut short by a Sierra. It wasn't fun, even for me, because I could see that my tricks were ruining someone else's day. I get that issue myself playing into Jazz and Co; while I'm an experienced enough player to counter the build with a little difficulty it requires focusing my entire game on aspects of play I just don't enjoy very much and prevents me from using the strategies I came to the faction to use. It really wouldn't take much to fix this issue for everyone though; any one of KHDs being buffed again, Blackout returning or minor homogenisation of capability between factions (which CB seem to be going with considering Dartoks) would put more emphasis on tools and positioning by providing ways to punish overly-aggressive Repeater deployment, especially on Unhackable platforms. I seriously don't think it would take the fun out of Nomads if long-bomb Pitcher shots risked a dangerous KHD retribution or if Morans had to be a bit more careful, I really enjoyed my own time with Bakunin's Hacking tools in N3 which did suffer from those hazards.
i just quote myself. yep. thats why it is called "opinion". Your precious mathhammer did not safe this Jazz. That´s why it is called "luck". But thank you for you always friendly and amusing attitude =)
Reality not marching theory is a regular occurrence. And please, if a poster cannot make a comment without insulting the other posters, I think it is time to take a break and resume the discussion once calm.
The 'special rules' about this troop is that it is the one and only unit being able to efficiently FtF enemy troops thanks to a good range and MOV 6-2 and BS 15 with a fair chance of survival in case of rolling specially bad thanks to his 2 wounds and ARM 3 with inmunity shock while at the same time tossing free eclipse grenades to up 24 inches using the same order and not affecting his FtF roll of the main gun to do so. Because, it is the one and only eclipse grenade launcher in the game*, and it is built on a unit that has Peripheral (Synch) *I may be wrong on this statement, although I have double checked just in case.
The times I faced Jazz and bothered to kill her (because as I said my opponents Pitchers have less than stellar luck) I mostly killed her by Super jumping something to shoot her, with Yu Jing, but I have killed her trough a tinbot -6 with Haidao and Tian Gou and killed her regular unlinked version with Santiago and Maria. Inevitably in the near future I will have to face her with Svalarheima, though oddly I do not recall ever facing her with Neoterra.
Spoiler: off topic Yep. To be honest (and maybe i am the dull, limited person without the ambition to win at any cost); I played this gml game exactly once to try it out. It - Is - fking - Broing. Why on earth should i play in a manner i KNOW no one has fun with. Yes, yes, i get it. Someone with maths will come end tell me thats the most efficient way to win. Win. A game. what we play for fun. for mediocre prices, which barely covers the costs. yes. keep going, boys. If that´s the way you enjoy the game, you don´t enjoy the game; you enjoy winning. Best thing to the GML discussion. An Essay on Some Potential Over Performance Conditions of Spotlight into Guided Attacks | Corvus Belli Community Forum I agree with PanO having it exceptionally hard (in my understanding) to work around this most beloved of all gamestyles, plus they have some realy juicy targets to suffer under it. And on the other hand: PanO does not have an easy time to pull this trick as easily out of the hat like other *coughnomadscough* factions. yes, i agree. I defenetly made myself not very clear; the Eclipse-bot is the "THING" of the GdA, like MSV3 on the aquila and mimetism6 on Swiss guard. But he is, as everyone can agree, a very rare sight
She can die just as well to SWF and NCA. I’ve shoot her in the face with a Squalo in NCA, burned her away with a Varg HRL in SWF, or gotten her under the template of an ML from Fusis, and in both have fried her with a Locust KHD. Again, put her on your terms, not hers, and think how to actually use the tools you have and she can be manageable.
Your first comment about PanO being able to brute force is just flat out wrong. What happens if you lose a face to face? Welp guess I just give up because the only way for me to move up the board is without smoke was with that gun. I mean I am not sure if you actually play PanO, but for those of us who do, myself included, you find that you just can't really do anything against a lot of factions like Kosmo, Nomads, Ca, SP etc. They stand up a gun and if you cannot deal with it, or you get unlucky and lose your main gun to a ML crit, good luck ever moving out of your DZ. Also there is no leveraging to be had, our gunfighters are as good if not worse than everyone elses, outside of tags and even then it's not like PanO has any sort of hacking defense so if they have a pitcher you are screwed. Theres no wish casting or complaining, you are talking to people who have spend hundreds of dollars on a faction they though they could use and have fun with and then low and behold they play for a year and realize that their faction is clearly underclasses compared to the others. I play PanO twice a week and no matter how much you practice, some match ups are near impossible to win. Maybe instead of producing straw man arguments and telling people who have spent real time and money on a game they thought they would enjoy to suck it up, you should think of something valuale to say.
What my fellow Pano local meta guys do in this case of losing that specific FtF is to use a Command Token to Coordinate Attack the ARO piece that is causing problems. Leveraging in the fact that even the guys not carrying the SWC cost weapons, do have a better than average BS. It is not uncommon to see them break a Fireteam just to do the coordinate attack, and then rebuilding it to keep moving up the table.
Realistically, you have to do that a few times. Also, I love PFaust Jaguars for this reason. Not much survives a Coordinated Order, and it affects PanO as much if not more than anyone else due to their cost.
That or you drop/ advance some close range firepower trooper to take out the problematic ARO piece, BS over 20 Shotguns or close range mimetism troops can be equally lethal.
I'm very curious about your table layouts and meta tbh. I think we should have more sharing of those kinds of things in general. It would help to provide context for the differences in opinion.
Please send your opponents over here, I'll send you mine. In my case my opponents will hide Jazz in the most inaccesible spot in their DZ, prone and away from any LoF except maybe from inside her own DZ and away from any other unit not to be hit by a template weapon. Her repeater/pitcher network is so big she doesn't have the need to poke her head out form her safe spot in the table. If you've shot her with a Squalo, burned her with a Varg or gotten under a template from a ML from a Fusilier great. But to me it sounds more like your opponent's mistakes than Pano having great tools to deal with her. The Locust KHD situation is luck. He even has worse odds than the KoS in one of my previous posts. And to address your last sentence. Jazz has all the tools to play on her own terms and prevent you to put her on yours. If it happens is because your opponent did something wrong.
It's not just Jazz either, any faction that can put out a wide hacking net and hide behind a Tinbot is going to end up as a top tier hacking faction whether or not they have top tier hackers.
