The easiest example is to compare line troopers using the same rough construct across the table Fusiliers v Zhanshi v Acquaciles/Moderators/Securitates v Ghulams ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15) FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 15) 2 SWC | 62 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ZHANSHI Missile Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 16) ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16) ZHANSHI (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) 2 SWC | 67 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ROKOT (Lieutenant) Submachine Gun, Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 9) ROKOT Submachine Gun, Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 9) ROKOT (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Grenades, Flash Pulse, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) ROKOT (Paramedic) Submachine Gun, Grenades ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) ROKOT AP Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15) 0 SWC | 54 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 GHULAM Missile Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 17) GHULAM (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16) GHULAM (Doctor [+3]) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15) GHULAM Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) GHULAM (Lieutenant) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) 2 SWC | 70 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ALGUACIL (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 10) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) ALGUACIL (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) ALGUACIL (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15) ALGUACIL Missile Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 15) 3 SWC | 62 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 MODERATOR MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1.5 | 16) MODERATOR (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 14) MODERATOR (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 11) MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 9) MODERATOR (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 9) 2 SWC | 59 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 SECURITATE Feuerbach / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 22) SECURITATE (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18) SECURITATE (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15) SECURITATE (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) SECURITATE Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) 1.5 SWC | 81 Points Open in Infinity Army This is a massive wall of text but should give us a semi tangible start state. Notably the Fusiliers are BS15, Zhanshi core is 5 pts more and is BS 14, the Ghulam are BS14 and 70pts. The Rokots are BS 13 and 10pts cheaper but really not imposing any ranged ARO presence. The Alguaciles are a spicy 3 out of 6 swc for a general core and only BS 13 while remaining the same points as a Fusilier Core. There are far more players comfortable taking a pure Fusilier Core than a lot of other factions are taking a pure Alguaciles core. The closest to raw shooting capabilities at this point is the Sec core which is a full 19pts more than a Fusi core. Sure tracking it’s also got veteran. But for cost it’s not a Tunguska players first point of list building. All those little bit of extra pts start chipping away at the points available for the bigger capabilities within a Faction. In addition every Fusilier/Crosier/Regular co is able to gain some capacity to go Light ARO Gun, Medium MSV piece, Heavy ARO gun. Medium - Bagh/Kamau/Friar/Karhu Heavy - ORC/Teuton/KoJ.
The above isn’t a measure of quality or viability. More a base lining to see if we can identify what method of thinking is. My immediate view is how easy PanO defensive cores are to build and customise while being fairly cost efficient by comparison to other factions.
Another layer to that is that this kind of basic fireteam is very point-efficient at what it does, while either being less capable in other areas than basic troopers of others factions (lower WIP on Fusilers and Crosiers), or sacrificing other capabilities (0 ARM Regulars). This is then modified by giving some of those units a non-standard toolkit. Regular and Fusilier FO with Deployable Repeaters, Regular hacker with Grenade launcher and FastPanda, Crozier with Blitzen and E/M Mines, Crosier with Spitfire and MSV2 (this profile inherited from old Order Sergeants). For me this points to: Specialisation; above average competence in one area, below average capabilities in others Tech (Equipment/Weaponry) based solutions and enchancements, as opposed to skill and stat increase
If we bring it internally. Focusing on the Sniper + HAcker+ PAramedic + lt and lt decoy potential mix. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 REGULAR (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) REGULAR (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Grenade Launcher ( | FastPanda) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 16) REGULAR (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) REGULAR (Sapper) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 21) 2.5 SWC | 69 Points Open in Infinity Army All the core ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 FUSILIER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 17) FUSILIER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) 2 SWC | 64 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 FUSILIER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 17) FUSILIER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) 2 SWC | 64 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 CROSIER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 18) CROSIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) CROSIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) CROSIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) CROSIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) 1.5 SWC | 64 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 FUSILIER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 17) FUSILIER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) 2 SWC | 64 Points Open in Infinity Army I've kept to the Sniper rifle as opposed to the ML. The clearest lack of Line Infantry versatility is MO in the Crosiers. Where they don’t get trained how to Hack. My initial change would be - Let Order Sergeants pure with Crosiers. The LT options make sense for MO being that the Knights wouldn’t feel comfortable being led and coordinated by a Volunteer. Where all the other components are all professionally trained Military Personnel. The Crosiers feel more like Church Loganto personnel.
MO Croziers link needs some more work, in what weapons, capabilities and what models should create pure fireteams it should have.
I'd probably go as even far as to say Crosier Coded options. - Order Sergeants: Likely those individuals who have risen from the Crosier Ranks and started off their careers as Crosiers - Reinforcing the Neovatican as a Hypercorp and the Crosiers are their relevant Loganto - Black Friars: The shepherd tending their flock. There's no way a Priest would not be more familiar working with the masses than alongside knights. In addition to this the sheer amount of desire to make sure these crosiers weren't going to affect the church is within the Dominican orders remit. Knight Teams - Let Teutons and Hospitallers have the option to go into knightly fireteams. They are after all knights.
Alternatives - Let the HMG Seraph duo. Harder changes - Make the Seraph S6 also as it was originally intended to be. Get rid of Dart > Replace her with a SuperJump Camo Konstantinos Make the Sepulchre the MO Guard Unit - Boost him to BS 15. SWF - Boyg can become the same - becomes the SWF Guard unit boosted to BS15
It’s really quite simple. Just allow multiple cheap troopers to form pure fireteams with more expensive ones like it was in N3. 4xFusiliers+ Kamau MSR used to be tournament gear check like 4x <any monkee> + Kaitok Feuerback are now. People want more gear checks. The new Torchlight brigade has learned the secrets of teamwork from Morats. Weird how new faction doesn’t suck mechanically like many older factions do. It’s like CB is trying to sell them. BS attack (-3) is a nice jab to Nomads.
I was thinking recently about MO fireteams, and arrived at this: (It was conceived to go in line with some unit changes, especially with remodelling Order Sergeants as per my earlier post) Military Orders FT | Duo, Haris, Core Crozier (*-5) Teutonic Knight (*-3) Knight of Santiago (0-2) Order Sergeant FTO (0-2) Knight Commander (1) (MO) Clipper (1) Mulebot (1) On its own compared to current version it'd simply allow to mix in some Remotes. The biggest change is due to change to Wildcards, allowing more of them to join here without breaking composition, and, in consequence, allow for 1) Knight+Crosier/OS pure Core, and 2) Teutonic Knights pure core. In this iteration it could easily fill the role of 1)ARO Core, both light MSV2 and heavy non-MSV versions; 2) Assault Core, either around KoJs or Teutonic spearhead; 3) Support fireteam, sacrificing composition bonuses for access to hackers and Doctor/Engineer. In every iteration access to linkable Remotes would improve Repeater coverage and would allow to keep costs down if going for HI-heavy fireteam. Support FT | Duo, Haris Order Sergeant FTO (1-3) Knight Commander (1) Mulebot (1) (Support) This one is primarily constructed as 1) Specialist support link; 2) Assault Haris with KoJs and Black Friar as pointmen. As with MO fireteam above, access to linkable Remotes would help with MO hacking area projection. Crusade FT | Haris, Core | Pure Composition FT gains Berserk Knight Hospitaller (1-5) Joan (Crusade) Bulleteer (1) Peacemaker FTO (1) These changes would reward taking the considerable expense of building pure Hospitaller fireteam. It's also a nod to pre-changes Teutons, moved here since post-changes Teutons are already very good, and Hospitallers could use the boost. For those who don't want to go for pure composition there would be some cheaper options to build around. Knights FT | Duo, Haris Knight of Justice (*-3) Knight of Santiago (*-3) Knight of Montesa (*-2) Joan (Knights) Bulleteer (1) Peacemaker FTO (1) These changes are fairly simple, allowing full knights to form an Assault Haris, with Remotes there to provide cheaper filler and Repeater coverage Wildcards Knight of Justice (1-2) (MO) Order Sergeant FTO (1) Black Friar (1) (MO, Support) Konstantinos FTO (MO, Support) De Fersen (Crusade, Knights) Joan (MO) Infirmarer (1) (Support) Pathfinder (1) (MO, Support) Fugazi (1) (MO, Support) Some unit changes going together with this: Trauma Docs, Curators, Tech Bees, Raveneye, Warcor, Robin Hook, Dart - removed Hawkins reduced to a Hospitaller Multi Marksman loadout Order Sergeants taking over various specialist and support roles (Doctor, Engineer, hacker with HD+, Minelayer with Shock Mines and FastPandas, HRL with Marksmanship), Minelayer and HRL keeping Auxbots Konstantinos - I didn't have an idea, but I like the one posted above, for him to take over Dart's role and some of her skills Knight Commander being made a slightly better Lt option. I'd like MO player to have a choice between good but relatively squishy LI Lt, and Knight Lt's being durable but with less bells an whistles Black Friars all having Sixth Sense and FTO Infirmarers getting Doctor (2W) or (+3) to give them reason to exist Knights of Justice getting Number 2 and NCO as general skills, making them experienced fireteam leaders. Also their weapon loadouts to be updated, can we get rid of that "elite HI armed with a basic Combi" crap. Spitfire, ML, Multi Rifle, Boarding Shotgun (+1 Burst), this kind of thing
Potential option - Make Mulebots Ava 3. Since they are shipped in 3’s. Give crosiers an FO option with dep rep like the fusilier.
How would PanO play as a faction if it had more troops with Move 6"-2"? Especially amongst the HI since you have some single choices that are and when placed in a Fireteam they're slowed down by the other members of the unit.
It'd definitely be more order-efficient, but I think 6-2 HIs should be most prevalent in YJ, with elite CA and Aleph units second. Looking at PanO units I don't really see many who would strike me as high mobility-based, besides Teutons and Guarda de Assalto. KoJs I can buy as such, they're halfway to being a proper heavy assault unit. Karhu - I think they should swap MOV with Vargar. Otherwise just give PanO more Remotes and options to integrate them (for example a purely Remote Haris in NCA), and it'd be fine.
I quite like Dart and Robin Hook in MO, I would rather not see them go. Both have a place and a story to be there, Traumadoc could go, same goes with tech bee, raveneye is not bad as a story element to be in MO. Order Sergeants should be were the specialist/ heavy weapons should be in MO, not sure what elements Croziers should have having them only with combis is a waste, but I do not think they should have the heavy weapons, spitfire with or without MSV and sniper rifle sounds more like Order Sergeants weapons.
Robin hook has a place. Dart doesn’t fit with the current storyline of MO. Made sense somewhat when fighting was occurring on Paradiso. But alas fighting has moved on and an OSS agent working inside the Church doesn’t exactly fit. Kon is the perfect candidate for the the combat skirmisher she fulfils. Kon also has a legitimate narrative reason for being taken in nearly every list. 1. He’s an adrenaline junkie. 2. Trying to earn resurrection points for his girlfriend.
Well she is an Acontecimento citizen so there is some plausibility to be related to the church, or the church have some political move to have her attached, but yes, she has a place, but its not the most firm one. I still prefer the unit to be in MO though. Don't get me wrong I would not be against Konstantinos getting upgrades, but I do not think he should be a Dart replacement.
Back to the Peacemaker issue - I've fielded one today (in a DBS list), accompanied by an EVO Hacker REM. Despite being put on Suppressive Fire and with Assisted Targetting, and of course in cover, it folded to Achilles (Corinthian) right away. Forward Deployment +8" was not enough to deploy it where the Repeater would be effective. Sure, Achilles is a rather extreme opponent, but still. EVO - apart from providing Assisted Targetting - was equally ineffective. Sure, it managed to act as a Repeater for my two linked Hackers once, but that was about it. The four Supportware programs didn't feel an adequate benefit for occupying a space in a Limited insertion list - I had a varaint of the list with a Bulleteer, and it would have been way more useful. Note that this criticism regarding EVO applies, generally, to all armies using it (IIRC Combined variant has a Combirifle, so it can at least defend itself).
So this is the Spitfire Peacemaker? I personally take the HSG one. Chuck Enhanced Reaction onto it. Give the Peacemaker and the Auxbot B2
Yup. A HSG would be even more at a disadvantage here - less Burst, no Supresive fire -3 modifier. Due to table layout, the Auxbot was of no effect. Range was about the same. Of course, it was by no means a comprehensive testing, but for probing the waters, it seemed good enough.
So a 1W BS12 no vis mods unit in suppressive fire lost to one of the best units in the game, and that is supposed to tell us... what? That it's bad? Or that Achilles is good? Or that a single dice roll isn't saying anything about anything? If the Peacemaker had critted three times and killed Achilles first order of the game, would that mean the Peacemaker is too strong? I don't understand the argument here.
