okay. So in your opinion the greatest point discount is in upgrade hacking programs? Is that tied to the strength of hacking right now in the game? Like if hacking was weaker do you think that it would be considered as strong of a discount still? Like for me I look at Aleph stat lines with pure envy. But I’ve heard people talk about other factions with the same jealousy. I guess I’m trying to identify specifically what the community thinks is the discounted unfair thing so that it can just be dropped into other factions that are lacking it.
Fully agreed. It’s still suboptimal despite what I would consider a huge buff. My point was mainly to say that the Crusade Fireteam is totally hopeless. And I really find it a bummer as it’s kind of a wtf situation that Joan is almost unpickable for MO… Now I know, one could say: Joan in Harris or duo makes much more sense. But even there… she is soooo expensive, so easy to hack, and so slow that you really need to be extra careful on what you do with her. And because she is so short range, she will at a certain point be exposed to a Daturazi-like unit that has non negligible chance to hap her or kill her in CC, which is a huge risk for the PanO player. Yes you could use a KotHS or Tik to hunt down hackers as priority targets turn 1, which would leave some freeway for Joan. But then again… Why then even picking her up if the dakka will be anyway happily distributed by such Tik or KotHS? Not only they will distribute as many slaps in the face as she can do, but they will also do it more efficiently and safely (more range, veteran for the KotHS, Holoprojector for the KotHS, higher mobility for the Tik, mimetism for the Tik etc) I know I’m going sideways but I really think she needs a HUGE buff, maybe not in Vanilla (where she has more reasons to exist) but certainly for MO. TacAw? Strategos? Increased dodge? Strategos seems to me the best way to give her a chance to exist in a MO list. Because without it, you anyway need a NCO to leverage her Lt order. Which is the KotHS (back to square one), or the Teuton (safer to send to the front line. Again, mutually exclusive). If you don’t: she will just sink your Command tokens as you’ll need to reform a link so that she looses impetuous. And while writing this, this could also be an option: give her more Command Tokens if not Strategos. At very least give her Veteran…
While I think MO is now probably the most in shape Pano army, it has only a few options, so it is really hard to surprise the rival or to try things outside the "small box". Sadly the "face" of it is outside that box. However, not placing the focus on MO, but whole Pano, I think you hit the main problem: the lack of synergies or, better to say "the small amount of it". Pretty much not "big surprises". Once deployment is done "to counter" if table allow it is pretty easy. For MO if not Tik presence, to hide your army is probably the best thing. Well, it could be Dart there, but a couple of mines for sure will delay her or at least to make her to expend a few extra orders.
I think she is okay like she is. Its always a problem to buff a profile, that is already good for the price. For 50/1 you got a fighting machine with 15 base BS, excellent CC skills and a good doding ability of 14 with inspiring leadership, which is her thing. Your tech bee for 5 pts provides an regular order now, that Joan can use to shoot things on the frontline. It looks like you trying to make her the perfect alrounder with no flaws. Visual mods, hacking protecting etc. are the job of other list elements. You can put mimetism, hacking-X, dodge+X, visor, veteran, nbw and all that stuff on top and end at 70+ pts... yeah guided -6 and veteran would make her immum to pitching oblivion attacks and allows you to just run through hacking zone without caring for spotlight ARO, but then: Achilles and all the other hereos also want this stuff. If Pan O military looks over their inspiring high tech chick, they maybe thought - okay, nowadys we have sufferd from sneaky hacking attacks and where prone to spotlights, so we need to protect her (in turn 1 if going second), so we throw in a anti hacking tinbot version for some extra points: Reset -3 would be a fresh one. But early guided/oblivon via pitchers is a general problem - not a specific Joan one.
She's awful right now. She needs Veteran, or bare minimum a tinbot and access to a reasonable (read not 50+ points) Chain of Command model who can't even fireteam. Hackable LTs are already a problem to build lists around, the problem just compounds with more eggs in the one basket when you start stuffing leadership abilities on them. Then add in no CoC? Why even bother. All the same shit changes to N4 hacking that made Sun Tze unplayable hit Joan just as bad.
As many Pano profiles "on papper" are great, but then, when the time to put it on the table is were the issues begin. The worse thing about Joan is she is better on Vainilla than his "own sectorial", but even there things are not as good as should be. Funny fact is the best Joan List you can have in Pano is when you have place many profiles "non Pano" as possible. For me this is a huge issue. In this point we could say is not a "direct issue" related to balance but to "user experience". But going back to MO is where Joan, unfortunately "has no sense". --> As "solo Lt" is not a good idea for many reasons. --> To deploy a "backup plan for a most probable" loss of Lt, you will need another extra 50 points, and having only 1 LtOrder you couldn´t squeeze that one properly, neither it has a "good weapon". --> In order to use properly her ability, you will have to break fireteams or not play it... or later to expend one command token to "remade" it... so, what is the point to use Joan´s ability, which just is not to have to use a command token for a coordinate order... ---> Yes, you could have a really strong haris, HMG+Doctor+Joan, but, do we need Joan in that "haris"?? While I´m certain Joan is right, how she merge and combine in MO and Pano isn´t. I said early, "lack of synergies".
I would argue a better Haris is Joan (choose your flavor)+Doc+Santiago, but it is an extremely blunt instrument, essentially a hammer in search of nails.
It's the most inarguable case of a free stuff - I think there's a question of if it's the biggest discount. HI categorically might be more discounted, but frankly the fact that so many HIs need to be priced with a crowbar (Asawira, Teutons, Cenobites...) more indicates that the formula is just wrong about what those profiles are worth. But hacking is definitely the space where there is probably the greatest variation in privilege between factions, and the extreme amount of free stuff adds to that problem. It would be less impactful, but the discount would be the same, basically? It might be more like Haqq doctors, where they're getting their extra MODs on the medical rolls for free, but Doctor is such an inherently limited skill that it's not an issue - but I'm not sure how hacking could get to that point, especially if the goal is to make playable but not as overbearing as it currently is. QUOTE="FrozenMittens, post: 468382, member: 1654"] Like for me I look at Aleph stat lines with pure envy.[/QUOTE] I don't really care about stats anymore. The d20 system is inherently very swingy, and stats are distributed across a pretty narrow band. In a world where units that care about gunfighting all mostly have a BS between 12 and 15, I'm always looking at mimetism before ballistic skill. Move is the big exception, as that defines what a trooper can do, rather than how well it does it. When I look at Alpeh, the first thing that comes to mind is that Dakinis can get a cheap pure core with mimetism and marksmanship; they're definitely better troops than Fusilers despite their ostensibly lower stats, but in this case they're correctly priced higher The second thing is they have a mine dispenser and I am jealous, but I'm not sure how I'd fit that into a list at 38+ points. Then, obviously, is whatever Steel Phallus is up to, but that's as much about them having smoke, lots of mimetism, and generally capable units as anything to do with their statlines per se. Vis mods are just a subset of being good at gunfighting. If you aren't taking a 50 point active Lieutenant to win firefights, then what is she for? And her gunfighting is unremarkable without link team bonuses, but she can only link with Hospitallers, so getting the burst bonus puts her up to 108 points minium and negates much of the mobility of her mobility armor. She needs a special LT skill that isn't Inspiring Leader in a sectorial with two(2) irregulars. As it stands she needs to either lean into being a powerful active model or a high-skill lieutenant; as of now, she tries to do both and doesn't really succeed without all of the promo mercenary irregulars in vanilla. Achilles, the famously Mimetism (-6) character does indeed benefit from a very skilled gunfighter. He's also canonically retarded so you don't have to pay for any special LT skills you give up by not making him your (hackable) Lieutenant. What exactly does Joan add to that Harris? A Teuton harris is somehwat less accurate, but costs less than 2 memebers of that team, is faster, and offers badly needed order economy without the issue of an obvious hackable Lieutenant. De Ferson costs just as much, but links as a wildcard and is a semi-credible hacker. Given her difficulty linking, I agree a Harris is probably the way to do, but that feels very much like trying to force her to work rather than being a good idea on its own merits.
So many truths. Joan's problem, and I have already mentioned it in an older post in another thread, is that she fails to synergize in the place where she should be synergizing more easily. That place being Military Orders. As it is now, that profile only contributes to worsening the unit bloat problem that MO has. Mendoza and the KoTHS are more effective at killing things, the Knight Commander is objectively a better lieutenant. She has nothing to contribute to a roster that couldn't be better contributed by other units. Putting her in a haris just to have a blunt object with which to hit enemies does not seem like a valid role for Joan to me. With all its goods and bads, the KoTHS found its purpose in MO with a complete redesign, the Montesa found its purpose in MO with another complete redesign, and the shitfest that was the Teutonic Knights also found its purpose in MO with a redesign. Maybe Joan has to go back to the drawing board because she is now unusable. The Knight of Santiago would also need a redesign, as it is now it is meh at best. And if the purpose of the Hospitaller Knights is to be vanilla and boring knights, so be it. But at least make them have decent linking options.
It's like people expect PanO players to leave the barn door open to getting handled easily by Nomads or else they're playing the faction wrong. PanO should be top-tier at electronic warfare, at least defensively, if it's actually the hyperpower. The fact that it's not just comes off as an enforcement of "PanO is the dumb faction" from the design team.
Fundamentally, she's an obvious hackable lieutenant, so the bare minimum is Veteran, and probably some type of ECM. And then in keeping with her theme, some kind of useful Lieutenant skill - Strategos would be fine - random space monkeys can get it, so it's clearly no longer limited to giant supercomputer mechs anymore. That's less useful that it looks because of how current MO is designed to be dependent on the Knight Commander +1 order combined with good NCOs, but it would at least open up some flexibility. I just don't understand how it ends up being 39 points minimum. I get 360 visor is expensive - maybe more than it should be on anything short of the Margarita - and honestly that might be most of the problem. He'd be better off without the visor and something basic like Shock Mines + Minelayer. Then again, this might be another case of HI just being priced at higher than they're really worth across the board. Yes, absolutely. I've said this before - if the design is that PanO has no offensive tools to deal with particular systems (hacking, warbands) then it needs the best defensive tools, with the idea being that you can force the enemy to deal with you on your own terms, even if you can't reach out and hit them that way. So yes; Tinbots (-6) should be widespread in PanO and under no circumstances exist in Nomads or Combined Army. Now that the Dokkaebi Cyberteam exists, Yu Jing is a toxic hacking faction and probably shouldn't have them either. ECM (Hacker) and ECM (Guided) should be widespread, or erzatz versions like Hacker (Zero Pain). Auxbots were a good start for doing this in the Warband space, but Auxilia only exist in NCA, and escort sergeants are painfully priced with how crunched for points MO is. One space to explore might be a unit with multiple HFT auxbots that have terrible movement and are limited to deploying in your own DZ, so they're a good tool for trading into warbands efficiently, but not very good at pushing up the board to keep them distinct from real warbands. Minelayer might be simpler, though at least then you get some level of security without having to put a minelayer profile units all over the faction.
Its a Joan Haris, its not about what Joan adds to it, (a really good close range BS attack and survivability, not much more) but in what ecosystem Joan would work, for me its this Haris format is what a Joan would benefit more. @Hecaton you add nothing to the discussion, try phrasing your posts without your discontent to Nomads and the design team and maybe you can actually start contributing to the discussion. is it that difficult?
It's less about whether it's difficult or not, and more about PanO having very few tools to counterplay. And that's what was already being discussed for some time in this thread, PanO lacks options for more interesting plays than Plan A: shoot, Plan B: shoot, Plan C: shoot. I know that most of the game is about shooting, but other armies have greater variety of what and how they can apply it. Bostria's famous "PanO was a mistake" and later comments about it was an admission that CB kinda designed the faction into a corner, and didn't have ideas how to broaden its playstyle. Again, it's not about power level, because the core mechanics of the game are very sound and do much to level the field. It's about expanding the toolbox, so that PanO players have other options than a variety of hammers. And discontent about Nomads isn't out of line, once upon a time they also had clearly designed strengths and weaknesses, but over the years design creep largely filled the latter, making them much more versatile when it comes to playstyles.
I would accept that more coming from a PanO player that is playing PanOceania the last 19 years, and even then this behavior is not really acceptable, but at least it is understandable, comming from someone who has not even played PanO is an overstep, and this is what my "Is it that difficult" goes to. I have no issue in players raising their opinions, objections, even discontent, if it is done respectfully and this is a low bar to pass to be honest.
This I agree about, ranting or insults - though the latter are flying in all directions in these discussions - bring nothing positive in. I'd really like if everyone could calm tf down, it's just a game, not something to insult each other over. Now, back to PanO and hacking - I agree that they shouldn't be much to write about when it comes to offensive hacking. They're the heavies, not tricksters. But it would be fully justified to 1) have a robust EVO support (I know, I know, it's my pet brainchild), and 2) competent defensive hacking. Zero Pain should work in ZoC (for all factions, obv), with more hackers having access to it - or even as a defensive subroutine installed in non-hacking units, like an electronic warfare Auxbot. And Repeater-equipped Remotes should be able to cover PanO units more easily - again, being able to join in and count for pure composition fireteams.
As it stands now, Zero pain is a gimmick, a complete rework of the program would be an interesting evolution.
It works if you have it as Hacker (UPGRADE: Zero Pain) on a unit that's already hackable, that's about it. Basically a B2 reset with a +3 MOD - it doesn't clear states, but once the -9 hit from Isolated goes down that probably wasn't happening anyway. IMO the easiest change would be to make it a regular Special Skill that you can declare anytime you would be eligable to reset. The burst bonus would be good for pushing down the odds of a successful hack, but still a determined player to push through an active hacking attack. Also make sure it would be valid to declare zero pain + BS attack, so you can be somewhat more functional inside of a hacking area. When every repeater locks down nearly a tenth of the entire playable area, having more tools to actually work inside of there is generally important, especially since Light Infantry aren't actually that great at it. Did you propose having SupportWare that works on a wider range of targets? Because with the assassin of the Armbot Remotes, EVO support right now is largely limited to boosting your B-team units. I like the concept, though; I think it does a good job of converying the idea of a well supplied force with a capable support echelon, and is better for gameplay than the other method of representing that (howitzers). Agree with this. I want to remain civil, obviously, but also not imply that Nomads or CA are anything like well desgined. Is it, even? In my experience, it's more like Plan A: Shoot Plan B: Pray (go for a Hail Mary play with whatever backup shooter you could afford) Plan C: There is no plan C. This is in contrast to my experience with Kosmo or Vanilla CA, were you can put in a bear, and a dep zone bear, and a pure linked Vokalak, and then a linked UKR as backup shooter. Compared to other factions, PanO is much more prone to going apart when the first big gun goes down (as others have said) and struggles to have backup plans. It's very rare that you have the sort of disposable attack peices (speculos, Bears, Fidays, Libertos, whatever) that can cause tons of damage while remaining expendable, or be fit easily enough to allow a list to retain an active threat when plan A goes down.
The easiest fix is just letting player 2 have EVO hackers spend a command token to start the game with their support ware online, like they did in N3.
Command tokens are there to be used. It was utilised last edition to good effect. Not to mention it was always optional, a player who didn't know how to get value out of it never had to spend a command token on their EVO hacker if they didn't want to.
