I know he doesn't have MSV, but have you tried the Orc feuerbach with fusiliers? They can use smoke with him, yes. But that's already some orders fromt he oponent. They can also go into his close range with the smoke, but having 2 wounds and ARM 4 means he will probably survive and be able to go prone into cover if needed... the opponent probably doesn't have that many orders any more after using smoke, approaching... all just to take 1 wound maybe from the orc but he is still there. If the orc falls unconcious the paramedic can very easily bring him up. And not only the feuerbach is scay in ARO, in active turn you can shoot with BS 15, B3 and AP+DA. The opponent won't usually leave anything with LoF to the orc, but sometimes they will advance and don't have many places to hide, and repositioning the orc will give you LoF. The movement 6" can be nice for that too. I've used him in Varuna with great success, even replacing the Kamau sniper. I usually protect him with a Helot nearby or a Zulu Cobra with a jammer and they always need many orders to force the orc into cover or drop him unconcious. I am thinking maybe in NCA you could protect him with an auxbot from an auxilia. And get active troops with MSV rather than reactive ones.
Yeah, but so does Haqq. ;) Fidays or Zuleika or Yuans are no button pushers. They are "hit stuff in the face" units that create the opening the rest of the list needs. They do that differently than PanO (jumping through a lot of loops and probably dying in the process, but trading up), but the basic principle is the same. And if they fail to do that, then a haqq list will struggle, too. My point being: That summary is perhaps a bit too broad and not that helpful? This is just an outsiders perspective, but a lot of the "unfunness" seems to be more related to surprise or mobility or doing multiple things at once. - "There are not that many units to surprise or outmanouver an opponent. There's hidden deployment and forward deployment, but few that can serve as reserves or speed across the battlefield. Except for the Montessa of course. Parachutists are a bit mediocre." - "PanO specialists struggle with surviving in the midfield. Either they rely on armor and 2+W, but that makes them hackable and expensive. Or they are 1W models that struggle against mines." - "A lot of stuff that can contest or clear the midfield, like Teutons dodging on 17, has to walk there from the deployment zone. Even though they do so with 6-2 with impetuous, which isn't that bad. But it's predictable and costs orders." Not sure if the statements are actually all that true. But stuff like that seems to be more of the bother, and probably closer the reason that PanO players feel like they are missing out on more stuff than other factions. (Wether that's really true would be another point.) I doubt that minor stat and gear points like WIP12-13 or someone having even more MSV is really the issue.
What I don't understand if that if you find this OP... why don't you replicate it with Varuna? You have an absolute, impossible to fail, deployable repeater (3) in the form of Forward Observer Croc Man. They will start in HD in the middle of the table, so absolutely safe until there is the moment of start moving to deploy the Deployable repeater. They will then use their own order to declare MOVE+MOVE with Terrain Total, Stealth, Camouflage State with MIM -6, so what the enemy would be able to do at best is to declare Discover to then with the hope of breaking his marker state. And if you're clever or lucky with the terrain there may not even be LoF to him. With an additional order, he will declare MOVE+DEPLOY POSITIONABLE and you will put a repeater just inside the enemy Deployment Zone line that it is impossible to fail as it requires no roll whatsoever to do so. And if you were lucky / clever the enemy may not even be able to try to shoot the Croc Man as there is no LoF, or you will survive the shoot thanks to his Mim -6. Leaving you free to keep applying presure with him by either deploying more repeaters, or shock mines, or letting him kill things thanks to his mim -6, good BS, X Visor and a combi rifle. The Azrail Haris that can 'eliminate any model from extreme ranges with minimal risk' turns into a Kamau Sniper Haris/Core and/or a Cutter. If you want to do a 3x or 4x Coordinatet spotlight you can always use a combination of Fusiliers/Kamau hackers or even add Croc Men / Echo Bravo to the equation to spice things up. And instead of yuan yuans, having Helot Militia, wich are also quite cheap for what they do.
The fact isn't wich factions miss one of these things in the list, but wich factions apart Pano miss every thing of the list. OSS have hacking device plus, Andromeda etc... So the answer Is no. And I wrote factions, not sectorials, is a big difference.
@Rabble You can pretty much replicate the same list idea with PanO using deployable repeaters and fastpandas. However, PanO (of any sectoral or vanilla) isn't not as good as QK, so why bother? Also following things make the original way better: - Linked Azrail-feuerback dmg output is probably the highest in the entire game. It can outrange HMGs if it wants and oneshots TAGs in ARO. Nothing in the PanO arsenal compares to it. It's basically always printing money, unless enemy has Total immunity or pitchers. It's also relative cheap and durable compared to other HIs so your list can have a lot of other attack vectors. - Croc man deployable repeater can be stopped with mines, bodyblocks and is hindered with terrain, so it's not nearly as safe to play as pitcher that can trivially reach 40". Not even close. - Yuan Yuans have impetuous, smoke ammo and direct template weapon. Option to combat jump or parachutist might be useful in certain maps but is generally not needed. Booty is nice when you get HMG or mimetism for free. Oh and this package costs mere 8 pts. 8!
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing on levels of effectiveness, just saying that the complaint about paying old HI prices was incorrect when we can point to pretty clear examples of big discounts. They did not lose stealth in the latest MO rework. N4 Magisters never had stealth to begin with.
Controversial- I think pan-o is great. I also think a lot of players start there and use logic they picked up form other game systems where big numbers = win and get disappointed when there opponents come at them asymmetrically. Pan-o has lots of tools for dealing with hackers, yet the newer pan-o players rarely seem to bring them trying to "build to their strengths", which is a strategy, and they will usually lay the smack down on any other faction's lists trying to go head to head in shooting. Against a nomad hacking list, it makes for a much cagier game where the pan-0 player HAS to play aggressive with pushing up the board and get there guns on the hackers. I've played this match up plenty of times, and it feels really bad for the Pan-o player until it doesn't when they get one shooter across the repeater line to get line of fire on the hackers and clean up. They can play the hacking game, though I tend to only see that from more seasoned players. MO has some of the only units in the game that are good from all 3 vectors of hacking, shooting, and close combat. The AD Santiago, I get is a gamble needing to pass a roll to get the full value from them, but when they do, they can really clean up against a hacking focused list. They don't have the most options for repeaters up field but both armbots are pretty good options for that. The crock man, while at a high premium, is one of the best repeater placers in the game. Guarda looks like a pretty bad proposition for smoke at first until you figure in they get to make the 50/50 roll 24' up with every shoot action. I'd suggest pan-o players mess around with some of the other rules they have available to them and try to get out of the math-hammer brain space. My experience tells me the game doesn't work that way and its the reason why I love it and can't really enjoy any other games much after it.
Yes, it's overly simplistic, however at the same time I stand by the spirit of it. Generally speaking, PanO brute forces its way across the board. A strong long range gunner Fireteam, be it a Core or Haris, and then filling in other pieces to push buttons. Those other pieces will typically have a single thing they excel at, and if you leverage that, then you're good. Coupled with that is remembering to look at what each army has available to it, and focus on how to use those tools, rather than wishcasting or complaining. It's immaterial what Army X or Y or Z has available to it to accomplish Tasks 1, 2, and 3. Use the tools at your disposal, practice with them until they are second nature, or move on to something else. It's toy soldiers. If you don't like an army and its tools, move on. Simple as.
QK is a very limited sectorial in a lot of respects. The azrael is a threat because if it touches you, you burn and explode to death. It really isn't a big deal of you can smoke it out or if you can lay into it with some sort of feuerbach or multi hmg with mimetism you can dominate it, or if you have a way to get a repeater by it to hack it its bts3. The more you have to engage it, the deadlier it gets, but its something that is fairly easily handled by a lot of factions.
Some of the mathhammer guys, plus folks who play MO because they like the minis, are about all that's left of this community at this point, at least on the forums. To summarise the problem, as I understand it, at its most basic level; players pick PanO because of its promised shooting and tech potential as they find those concepts fun, but thanks to their disadvantages in scoring, Hacking, templates and indirect board control, subsequently spend almost the entire game stuck doing things they frankly do not enjoy. And with the closing gap in shooting power between factions this is further exacerbated because when a player finally gets that dirty Nomad in their sights, they have a high chance of just accomplishing nothing or even losing their gunner, and don't enjoy any major advantages on the defensive either. Remember when a Nisse was considered a top-tier ARO piece? If there's any way to get PanO acting like it's advertised, it's creating ways to get FTF rolls flowing. Faster troops, lethal KHDs, breaking the old embargo on PanO being able to get good forward deployment- anything that lets players hacksaw through the midfield crap and shoot some soldiers. It also probably needs just a touch of Warband, Skirmisher and tricky units, if only for people who pick based on fluff or minis first so they don't get locked into playstyles they don't enjoy. MO at least seems good on that front, and Vanilla by extension, but the other Sectorials need a bit of a boost for those of us who want to play the more corporate/nationalist side of the faction rather than leaning on the Crusades for all the tools. Just addressing this one quickly- people tend to pick armies because they either like the look of the minis or the fluff, or because that army pushes an aspect front and centre that they find fun. Not everyone has the money to splash on replacing their damn faction because it provides a dull experience compared to what it's advertised as, so kindly stop pushing this as a solution. Priority should be on living up to the expectation that CB itself presents with its advertising.
Thats really bold to assume that PanO players are just stupid or don't know how to play. Moving through a nomad players' repeater net means getting targeted. You are now at a significant BS disadvantage. If just moving past the repeaters let's you draw los on their hackers, you probably have a table thats way too open. We can play the hacking game at a premium. The Santiago AD will cost you 60 points and works in extreme danger as all of its good engagement ranges are under 8". Wandering around your opponents DZ should be fraught with danger if they have a strong list. This is a piece that can quickly wind up trading down. Most premium hacking pieces in PanO cost nearly 50 points. Managing hacking nets and hacker investment can be very meta dependent. Access to pitchers and other things that can project hacking strength across the field can quickly nullify our rather vulnerable hackers. 50-50 is bad for smoke. Its the worst in the game. You can spend a lot of time and orders trying to make it work, but you would probably be better off just throwing a tik or bagh hmg at the issue and being done with it rather than burning 2-3 orders trying to get an eclipse template out.
Not what I'm saying at all. My mistake when I was green was on the opposite end, of thinking I could play Bakunin with just button pushers and ignore the shooting. Based on my early experience I could have resigned that bakunin bad because they can't shoot so good and I got my 'hands disabled' almost every game. Instead I pivoted to ariadna for a little to learn the shooting and CC game without worrying about hacking. I believe it made me better nomad player. Maybe Pan-o players playing something different for a break will open up some things? I'd resign to this point except Its the only smoke in the game that you can throw in the same order you shoot something. When its just a bonus on top of an action your already going to do, 50/50 ain't actually half bad.
Your solution to everything boils down to: dont talk about it, don't point it out, don't think about it, don't try to communicate an issue, the game is perfect, dont change anything.
Hey, Chairman Mao is the People's Leader, and there is no reason to criticize the Glorious Corvus Belli.
I'm sitting on at least a bit of every faction. I like PanO's models and style the most. Ironically, I think that people should play PanO for a bit as it forces cleaner play back into their faction without relying on a lot of tricks to get around issues like smoke, impersonators and the like. That is true and in theory very powerful. However, the practical applications of the gda become strenuously thin when its such a massive gamble of very limited resources
All this thinking about Pan-o has made me really want to try them. Think I'll build a vanilla list with the Guarda and knight of justice hacker in there. Will report back with a list and my experience. Shooting is still the most order efficient thing in the game. Its a gamble with the potential loosing something in ARO. I've definitely lost plenty of games dumping orders into smoke to push something not quite far enough.
I can say in my case NCA was my fourth faction, after Yu Jing (which I'd still be playing if Uprising never happened), Nomads with a Bakunin focus (Hacking and REMs were fun, but I hated working with Warbands) and MRRF (Exclusion Zones were introduced that ITS season. Nuf said). My decision was certainly informed by past experiences, and I enjoyed the faction immensely. The current problems really only got bad with the N4 rework, with PanO just being left behind in a changing game and even losing some of their key tools- Non-Varuna PanO was really, really reliant on KHDs doing their job, more than any other faction, because they took the Hacking game head-on rather than playing around it with Markers. MO clearly had effort put into revitalising it, but a few Space Knights and crappy crossover Mercs does not a faction make and the fact nobody's doing anything about it is driving people away. Huh, haven't checked G:Synch since last edition where I'm pretty sure you had to select the same target. That does raise the stock of the GdA somewhat, though he's in the Sectorial with the best movement already.
G;synch is real good right now. they don't have to be the same target, and I believe if it did, the target less trait on the GL fixes that, similar to how you can throw smokes in a coordinated attack with other factions.
Smoke is targetless so it gets around a lot of target restrictions in general, but in general g synch just needs to declare the same skills, not the same target.
I do confirm that G:Synch... or as it is called now Peripheral (Synchronized) can shoot to a different target than the master unit. They have to declare the same order, but can choose different targets to them. Which in the other hand, and even if it is 'just an' BS 10 roll, it is not smoke, it is eclipse. Which is an absolute block of LoS for whatever you need to move up the table against everything no matter what. And it is something you can toss around while your BS 15, 2W, ARM/BTS 3 is infliciting pain with their spitfire or multi rifle. Which makes me wonder why it has been discussed in other threads that Pano has no CC specialist 'delivery system', when they have this option available for Vanilla and SAA.
