I think this is quite a specific opinion about PanOceania, PanOceania is not just a +1BS faction and do have a lot of tools to work, I will accept that they are heavily geared towards first strike and are more prone to be affected by catastrophic luck, plan B and C are more difficult to execute with PanO than with other factions, but still possible. PanOceania is a faction that stacks modifiers, almost all MSV are paired with mimetism, or fireteams or both, hackers get camouflage and our repeater network is not only extensive, but also can fight and usually can duo with hackers forcing enemies to declare suboptimal ARO when attacked. I do understand that many of PanOceanias key units are old and therefore "unexciting" compared to other newer units, but that does not diminish their effectiveness or lethality.
Oh but I never said PanO is unable to hold. You can definitely stack some crazy stuff. And their Tags are just absolutely amazing. I just find them boring. Except MO. It’s the only sectorial I still have fun. And that’s probably because: 1. Trinitarians are absolutely incredible. Hidden deployment Minelayer specialists with mimetism-6. That’s just.. Insane. 2. Because the Tikbalang and KotHS are extremely fun to play with, without being broken. Now about the repeater network I tend to more disagree with. The Peacemaker and Bulleteer incredible nerf has strongly diminished the repeater network capabilities of PanO. Where you hit the nail on the head is when saying that Plan B or C is too difficult to execute. That’s exactly that. Specially with VIRD and Winterfor. But the worst, is that PanO in some instance is just unable to stand efficiently against some specific units. And this is where I tend to be disappointed by CB - you play against a faction that has hidden deployment units with template hits? What do you do? Jack s**t. All other sectorial have smokes or eclipse that they can use to cover a specific advance where you believe there could be a hidden dep. PanO? Just pray that the unit isn’t where you think it could be, perfectly positioned to prevent you from moving. - you play against Mc Murder? Good luck… Most of the sectorials have no viral weapons and by memory, the only one who does is NCA with Swanson. Yeah yeah you can long range BS Spam it. You just spent 5 orders to kill an irregular sub 30 points units… Well played… - you play against the Bears? Same story. Only a bunch of units have breaker ammos. And you got 2 of them. You play with Winterfor or NCA? Too bad your midfield is paper thin. - you play against a pure linked MSV1 HRL Suryat and he just stands there hard ARO your objective ? You’ve got no HD+, you’re unable to hack him, he outguns you, you have no eclipse, no warbands or units able to trade efficiently against him. Again… Good luck spending 10 orders to get rid of him, or sending your super expensive specialist for a suicide button mash with their incredible WIP12. Will you lose the game? Not necessarily. Will you feel frustrated that when looking at your list the only options you have are totally suboptimal (to not say outright bad)? Will you feel frustrated thinking « if I was playing with (insert any other faction of the game) I could do this this or that, but not with PanO »? Well I do. I will die on this hill: CB needs to do something for PanO. Or it’s just that this faction is not for me. That’s a shame because I have about 100 of them fully painted and I adore their minis.
No, most factions do not approach hacking their own way. It's a matter of "how good are you at it" and if you invest points into it against an opponent who is better at it than you, those points become a liability.
Nope. They are just the +1 BS faction. They aren't geared towards "first strike" because they can't attack into null deploy. Nomads are a better first strike faction. Of course, the trash scenario balance (B-Pong anyone?) probably has a lot to do with this too.
Well, we've been discussing this for years now. The only PanO sectorial that got some attention and creative thought was MO, rest is on hiatus. Main reason why I'm not a PanO player anymore. In regards to hacking, I'll repeat myself; I think PanO signature hacking strength should be access to more and better EVO hacking programs than anyone else. Their combat hacking might be nothing to mail home about, but once they can get uplink into the massive off-battlefield support infrastructure they have in place... As for their repeater network, they should routinely working alongside remotes tied into fireteams, and also have dedicated electronic warfare Auxbots here and there.
Option A) Outrange him. All Pano sectorials have access to a pure team with a weapon who can outrange the Suryat. Even the humblest of the humble, a pure 5-man Fusilier Sniper causes 1.19 wounds per order against the pure-linked Suryat if you’re at the +3 range and he is in his -3 range. And please remember that even MO has ‘fusiliers’ in the shape of Crosiers. A Pure 5-man Kamau or Nisse Sniper causes 1.28 Wounds per Order to the pure 5 Man Suryat in the same proposed range band. Even the pure 5-man Fusilier Missile Launcher causes 1.38 wounds per order if you manage properly the range bands, although he will have a bit worse FtF itself. A Pure Bolt sniper is a dreadful proposal to the Suryat as they will cause 1.56 wounds per order, which imply a 52.5% chance of causing two or more wounds directly in each order. Option B) Overwhelm him. A 4-man Coordinate order of panzerfausts is going to roughly cause 1.53 wounds per order if the Suryat declares dodge. If he decides to try a FtF trade against one of the coordinate troopers, congratulations, now you’re at 1.83 Wounds per order just from the 3 unopposed Panzerfausts. Where to found the Panzerfausts? Teutonic Knights, Echo-Bravos, Nokkens… By the way this means that in the A Missile launcher is technically a Panzerfaust in this regard, so your fusilier ML is always there to do the trick. A Blitzen may not be lethal, but a single wound of a blitzen would seal the deal just as good. Option C) ‘Hack’ him through superior Pano-Technology I: The Wildparrot. Found in your Echo-Bravos, Locust and Vargars. Echo-Bravos can Parachute into position. Locust can Infiltrate into position. The Vargar is going to just casually walk into the Suryat absolutely safe in turn 1. Lately combine Option A or B with option C to maximize the chance of him being affect with the E/M ammunition and getting Inmobilizied-B Option D) ‘Hack’ him through superior Pano-Techonology II: The E/M mine carried by Uma Sorensen. Her Camo State will allow her to advance into position, apply her e/m mine, and then combine Option A or B with option D to maximize the chance of him being affected with the E/M ammunition and getting Inmobilized-B. Option E) Talking about Vargars, you can abuse the fact they can ignore the Suryat in turn1 and use a neat Haris in SWF to move up the board, kill the teammates of the Suryat in his fireteam, and then just flame him when he has no more Sixth Sense from out of LoF. Even in vanilla Pano, you can use the Spitfire Vargar to replicate this with even less resources invested. Option F) It may sound strange, but vanilla Pano and SAA has eclipse. Guarda de Asalto maybe an unusual piece to be used, but he exists. Remember that you can use the eclipse grenade launcher of the Auxbot to block the LoS of the Suryat as you’re moving up the table and killing OTHER targets with the Guarda’s Spitfire.
Option G) give marksmanship to spitfire Bulleteer and engage the Suryat from the 8"-16" range band while in cover, a surprisingly common solution to many problems for PanO... For me at least.
I think Svalarheima is a solid sectorial that is quite fun to play, MO are creative indeed, NCA keeps getting better with small additions, though it has not fundamentally changed how it plays, Varuna is what it was, but it was always an deviation from the normal, I have no opinion on Acontecimento as I do not play it, but it has always been described as an unorthodox sectorial for PanO. I think that while small in scale such updates do some changes in the sectorials.
This is the odds of a Mk2 Squalo engaging the Suryat HRL in good range for both This is the odds v a Jotum Proper prep. You’re fairly safe if you use any PanO TAG to just knock down the Suryat. Just may take some orders. But once it’s down it’s down. Or the opponent attempts to pass the religious roll and gets him prone. If they haven’t brought a paramedic then he’s not getting back up. It’s a measure of what you’re willing to risk - Risk your order pool or risk your troop’s safety?
If I can have Mirage-5, I'm not about to say no... That's another way to go about it. Just in general, I don't think hackers should have such a powerful tool aginst their alleged counters when they are already so backbreaking into their designated targets. If you look at is as a weapon triangle thing, HI/TAG -> LI -> Hackers, then Hackables are usually somewhat advantaged over LI, Hackers absolutely dominate HI and TAGs, but LI don't really have much advantage over hackers once you account for the inevitable corner guards with templates, or the fact that they tend to move kinda slow. Having targeted clear in the States Phase would prevent it by followed up by cheap GML shots, so that's a major improvement. I'm not sure how much SWC really helps, without tweeking profiles to take advantage of it. I often find my lists aren't really constrained by SWC in any meaningful way - it happens in SAA because Regulars have a ton of great ways to burn it very quickly (1 swc for the hackers, because only PanO has to pay a tax for role compression on hackers, 1.5 for Sapper Snipers in an affordable pure Core). However, TAGs eat up a ton of points without using much SWC - usually 70-80 points for the TAG itself, then ~20 for the requisite engineer and palbots, plus some flashbots and line infantry cheerleaders, and so forth. Once that's done, I'm usually penny pinching such that a Crossier Spitfire or Fusiler Missile Launcher is prohibitive on the points cost. It's a good idea, but it would probably need the Line Infantry SWC option point prices to be fudged somewhat. Eh, my reference is Crossiers, so 1 point for 1 point of WIP and also free hacking computers doesn't seem like an awful tradeoff. Yep, only on the single most cancerous model in the game. Yeah, that's all valid, and if they didn't have the Speculo Killers, and especially the speculo minelayers, I'd probably agree with it. As it stands, SEF probably comes the closest to fair desgin of any CA subfaction, but they still get AVA 2 Ikadrons and cheap xenomorph warbands to dilute the impact of allegedly being an elite army, and the bloat on their infantry is a template that insta-blaps hackables. And also Impersonators. So they are least bad, in the sense that SEF is being shot by 5.56, whereas vanilla CA is being shot with .50 BMG. Agreed. Yes, that's essentially the light in which I was saying that repeater firewall MODs should be flipped. But every faction stacks MODs? That's the name of the game if you aren't trying to make some unopposed attack to prevent the enemy from rolling dice back. PanO seems to be worse at fireteams that most other armies. In general, you have to actually pay for a pure core if you want pure core bonuses, or buy a mix of similarly expensive troops. If you want an ORC with pure link numbers, you are buying 145 points of HI minium. If want those bonuses for Hospitallars, it's the same price. WinterFor Beta fireteams let you mix two different types of really expensive infantry. WinterFor probably gives a very good example of this problem with the Karhu, who have very flexible links but almost nothing that can pure link with them, so they ride almost entirely on the power of the FB profile. Until CB nerfs it, because that's what we can apparently expect (Bulleteers). As long as the metric for comparison is the affornt to human dignity called the Morat Fireteam, that's a weakness of the army. It's not like BS pure links are unseen elsewhere. And PanO isn't amazing at Mimestism, and the profiles that have it are mostly Swissguard or TAG, and therefore unlinkable. Visors are a crapshoot, but in MO they're never in a great place - why doesn't the MSR friar link?
Thank you, you’re all making my points ;) Spending half of my orders / all of my coordinated orders to get rid of 1 stupid 36 points unit, or needing to take a risky F2F roll (because 36% chances of losing my roll is insane) with a tag worth twice or 3 time the price of the Suryat is far from being efficient.
Can we speak about the Volkolak? So, Kosmoflot: amazing warbands. Amazing midfield. Amazing Bearpodes, amazing paratroopers, smokes spam (all of which PanO doesn’t have) and: For less than 83 points you field an absolutely amazing pure core with a ML Volkolak, and you still have 217 points to fields all the amazing aforementioned units that can alpha strike basically anything. And that pure core will be more efficient than PanO cores worth twice the price. I’m all Ok with PanO not having the tools, but then it shouldn’t be outgunned. Anyway. I’ll stop complaining here and be impatiently waiting for the new O12 sectorial that is providing me with tons of more fun than PanO without being outright broken / antifun for the opponent.
I think you do not understand the math behind an higher than 1.0 Wounds per Order. And specially an higher than 1.5 Wounds per Order. Please let me illustrate. A Bultrak in active turn shooting against a Panoceanic Sniper Fusilier from any range has a 0.79 Wounds Per Order spent against him. That means a merely 46.5% chance of causing one or more wounds. That’s the Bultrak. Your reliable B5 Damage 16 AP/Shock Morat Apex Shooter with High Mobility and Armor 7 of 71 points. He is going to use 2 or 3 orders to knock down the Sniper Fusilier in average. The same Humble Sniper Fusilier has a 1.19 Wounds per Order against the linked Suryat if he outranks him. That is a 64,8% of causing one or more wounds. That’s the Sniper Fusilier. Your disposable ARO afterthought that you bring for uplifting your cheerleaders from something other than a cheerleader and LT holder. 17 Points. He is going to use 2 or 3 orders to knock down the Suryat in average. I will let you a moment to think about the fact that in average it takes the same amount of orders for a Bultrak to knock down an Core Linked Sniper Fusiler from any range, as the fusilier to knock down the Core Linked Suryat when he outranges him. And I am sure you won’t consider using the Bultrak in such a way as ‘spending half your orders’ And from there all the other options are just better and better odds. For example, the Core Bolt Sniper 1.56 Wounds per Order implies that he has a 76.7% of causing one or more wounds, or a 52.5% of causing 2 or more wounds. He is taking down the Suryat in 1 or 2 orders averagely. Finally please mind that the Suryat is not a mere 36 points unit. If that would be the case, and he was a unlinked 36 points of BS 13 MSV1 and B1 in ARO this discussion wouldn’t happen isn’t? He is pure-core linked and that’s what is causing you to respect him. And even in the cheapest of configurations of 4 morat vanguards and a Suryat that implies he is spending 92 points of his army to have this ARO piece. But chances are in reality that what is inside that fireteam is really a morat paramedic, a dartok hacker, a Kurgat engineer, and a Yaogat Sniper for Active turn sheannigans. Suddenly that 36 points is really the linchpin of a 131 points fireteam who is going to lose an huge amount of power if he goes unconscious or killed.
Dont worry. I totally understand the W per order. And I really love the theorycrafting you’re all putting disregarding totally the reality of a game. What you all say are totally unrealistic scenarios involving a complete noob that: 1. stupidly puts a Suryat in the open field of a corridor long enough to be outranged despite having an HRL 2. Doesn’t have anybody in the midfield to protect him from a wild parrot or mine Because you all focus on the Suryat, and treat him as a single unit, completely disregarding everything surrounds such Suryat. Dartok linked pitcher Hacker+Trinity, Active Yaogat sniper rifle, short range defense of such core, all the midfield protecting the core, the pitchers dropped by the Dartok to impede movement etc etc
But you are assuming he does not take all these into account, you set an idealized scenario and people respond to an idealized scenario, with an idealized scenario, reality of the table is a chaos dictated by dice, I have lost twice my active HMG Swiss hitting on 18s and been hit on 3s it happens. In any case there are few factions, if any, that stack modifiers like PanO, MSV1-2 and mimetism on the same model with fireteams that can be core (and pure) with high BS is not something other factions can do so easily or as solo pieces combine mimetism -6 with long range weapons and extremely high BS.
You presented an scenario in which the Suryat was covering a mission target you need to activate without any kind of cover or scenary that would allow you to touch such mission target without it being a 'suicide run'. Now it is not an open field and we have scenary to play around? If that is the case then we can move up the field without being AROed by such Suryat? Like getting close enough to be in his +0 range band while we are in our +3 range band with a B4/5 MK15/Spitfire/Redfury? Or even enough scenery to allow a Warband such as Liang Kai to get personal and intimate in close combat with the Suryat? It was you the one who presented an absolute scenario in which Pano had 0 possible answers to as Castle Up Suryat in Aro surveying the battlefield undisputedly. Either he is oppressive and there is no scenary to hide you around... in which case he is also vulnerable to be outranged. Or he is placed conservately and therefore he has dead angles and/or is not covering all possible lanes of approach to your Deployment Zone.
Can you tell me again where I said PanO has no answer and where I didn’t say that PanO has to answer with undue orders or suicide the specialist?
Exactly: I literally said it will take you several orders to get rid of that unit and that it’s not what will make you lose the game. That’s not equal to saying PanO has 0 answers
