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PanO reimagined

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Stiopa, Apr 2, 2022.

  1. Thule

    Thule Active Member

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    Your joke flew right over my head, goddamn.

    SWF also has the vanilla, 15pt Machinist, and the Karhu engineer, who’s a competent gunfighter as well as an engineer. Maybe not 29 points good, but still an option.
     
  2. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Yes this would make it four options in total, but you can only take three and to be honest, you will chose the 15 pts engineer only if you run very low on points :smirk:
     
  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Damn, I'm so detached from game that I missed that new unit.

    Informer just became 10 times more pathetic.
    CB just killoff PanO if you cannot make anything fun with it.
     
  4. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Yeah - comparing the profiles makes me sad. On is just an overcosted doctor with a useless mono-ccw (that will be handy perhaps in some very special corner case) while the other is, for 2 pts more (and only armed with a SMG) a durable lifeguard that has all the tools to reach and revive the wounded comrades in the thick of battle.
     
  5. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Uhh, don't get me started on the Infirmarer. There's a lot of cool things that were done with MO in their last remake, but Infirmarer isn't one of them.
     
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  6. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Beautiful post, but it misses one thing... limitations are bad! The future is more! Every army does every thing and are all the same!

    We will all become Nomads eventually, and the sooner PanO players accept this, the happier they will be.
     
  7. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, thats what I meant. I didn't want to call out Nomads specifically, but thats what I'm talking about.
     
  8. I think that CB should overcome the mental brake that for the design of troops supposes that this Faction has BS+1.

    The summary is:
    > Can I have more WIP?
    - No, you already have BS+1
    > Can I have smoke?
    - No, I already told you that you have BS+1
    > Can I have...?
    - How can I tell you that you have BS+1!
    > But...
    - Stop bothering, be content with your BS+1.


    Maybe in N1 or N2 (when there were no missions and the games were just shootouts) that BS+1 was something to fear, but with time and updates it has become irrelevant on the table, but imo it is still a brake when designing troops... what has given as result, in many cases, standard, flat and boring troops.
     
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  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You see Nomads are so great that among their strengths is that they are prime contrast example in how bad/boring/bland point PanO is!
     
    #29 eciu, Apr 4, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
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  10. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    It is not the unique "doctor" which a weapon combination like that, I remember when the "reverend healer" came out with the EXP CC Weapon... the why!!?? Of nomads players could be heard anyplace "around the Sphere". (At least EXP CC allow you to achieve some missions).


    You hited right in the spot! When early N3 came a lot of changes happen, a lot of them impacted directly on Panoceania:

    A lot of Range weapons changed (one of the best things of N3). HMG + Multi HMG were one of the most affected weapons. So, the big panoceanian guys received a severe downgrade... But things don't end there, SWC as raised 0.5 in most tags. The final blow come from hacking... hacking a TAG become easier.

    Face to Face rolls if tied were a win for the "Higher BS"

    MVS3 change drastically. This was cool thinking on not too many factions could deploy too many camo markers.

    Play one group become useless because enemy could take two orders from the pool if you went first...

    Costs don't change too much for many profiles, so go for 2 groups list were hard for pano.

    Spam lists become a thing for many factions... A cheap guy with panzerfaust has the chance to kill a TAG, but they were not a unique cheap guy but four of five, so, the question wasn't if any of them could kill the expensive model but when.

    Many factions received skills which become better than to have high BS (marksmanship), one example of this... Nisse snipper was one of the best aro pieces any Pano player could align, but then the "speznat" came to Ariadna... A guy who shoots better or equal to a nisse, plus shock. Many profiles with shock dammed every ARO piece to be dead, not unconscious... But not only skills where given, too high BS in new profiles. For half N3 existance, the BS12 become almost the "regular".

    Yes, things like Varuna and the terrible kamau snipper happens to Panoceania, but the joy was short, only a few games were needed for players to neutralize the "menace", without almost no deployable weapons like mines, crazy, madtraps, etc. it wasn't hard for any camo with light or boarding shotgun took a detour to catch a lonely linked fusilier (best scenario) killing it and taking away the "+3 fireteam bonuses"...

    With the addition of Winterforce Pano had a lot of new units with high BS 13 become almost the "regular BS" (if anybody looks into Varuna or Winter easily will see that BS13 is truly common), but right now high BS on itself isn't enough to be a good profile, and it is pretty much what Pano has from CB.

    I could be writing for hours, but I believe I made my point clear enough.
     
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  11. Gio

    Gio Member

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    So how can we get CB to listen to these thoughts about PanO?... or are we just getting it out of our system and nothing will happen?

    I've already switched to White Company after several frustrations with WinterFor
     
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  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    We cannot.

    All what can be done here is vent the frustration.
     
    #32 eciu, Apr 6, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2022
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  13. Morganus

    Morganus Evolved Emotional Intelligence

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    I agree with this analysis wholeheartedly.

    Back then, when CB put up strength and weaknesses of factions on a ten-scale rating system as well, it was much more clear what is the design space and idea behind them.

    PanO had the following ratings (I ordered them highest to lowest):

    TAG: 10/10 (Nomads were second with 6/10)
    HI: 9/10 (second only to the YJ 10/10)
    REM: 8/10 (second with YJ and CA to Nomads and Aleph 10/10)
    MI: 6/10
    LI: 4/10
    Parachutist: 4/10
    SK: 2/10
    Camouflaged: 2/10
    WB, Special, Infiltrators: 0/10

    I think it shows us that PanO had a rough start already, being in the second half of the race with its overall focus points, but also having weaknesses in areas that became the strongest in the game (camo, smoke, cheap warbands, versatile SKs etc.). I agree with the previously mentioned aspect as well, that for a while the higher BS could have been a good advantage for the faction, but not so much anymore.

    My suggestions to CB would be the following:

    1. Embrace the origins of the faction and make PanO having always more options in their strongest area, namely TAGs, than other factions. Now PanO has 7 TAGs and 5 sectorials, while CA will have 6 TAGs with only 3 sectorials (even though originally CA had only a 4/10 TAG focus), and one of their sectorials (OCF) can choose from 3 different TAGs. I am mainly a CA player, but still think PanO should be more ahead, having at least one or two sectorials choosing from 3 TAGs, and having a new unique TAG (personally I would give it a Smoke Granade Launcher, because I find it silly that a technically advanced faction in the future does not have something that a tank even in WWII had).

    2. PanO should keep up with its REM game as well. CA now has more REMs and a distinct flavour with its Unidron series, and even YJ is pushing ahead with their new cool toys of Yaofang Long Ya. I am not sure, what kind of unique REM could strengthen the PanO lineup and certain sectorials in it, but maybe even something like an ambush bot (with forward deployment, camo and stealth).

    3. Specialization, as mentioned in OP, should be primarily supporting the main strength and focus of the faction, which is basically the TAG-HI-REM triangle. It should be obvious, that the main shooting and staying power is concentrated in top-class TAGs and HI, which should be supported by tailor- made solutions (such as anti-hacker warfare). Even though the initial plan for PanO was that it should lack certain elements (like WB, Special, and Infiltrators), I think the game is already past that phase where it can be maintained (as it has infiltrators already, obviously), as it is not healthy for the game and the design space around the factions. I can agree with a no-WB policy though. But as Chernobog joins the roster of Ariadna as its own TAG (even though originally Ariadna had a 0/10 planned for TAGs), I think it is about time to fill-in some of the blind-spots of PanO as well, such as the ridiculous lack of smoke, and make at least one special vector for deploying it like certain bikers (Yoyimbo or Kuroshi) are doing for JSA. It could be a TAG or a REM, making at least a plausible attempt to explain why the PanO doctrine is different in this reggard (like: PanO uses fast TAGs and REMs to initiate attack, deploying smoke, and that's why the following infantry doesn't need to have smoke grenades, or something...).

    4. Focus on regular warfare. I agree with OP on the broad strikes, but as I mentioned earlier, I think smoke still could have a place on at least one PanO vector (such as a TAG or REM), because it is not just about shooting through smoke (although Varuna, SWF, NCA would probably use like that), but making it possible for certain troops to advance to the midfield. MO knights could use such help, just as JSA samurai do it with the help of the ronin Yojimbo. Putting this kind of option on a TAG would coming with a price and inherent weaknesses of course (and its easier to limit it to certain sectorials), making it a unique PanO solution, which is probably not mandatory for all the lists, but still opening up the list-building space for the players, which is arguably very much needed for PanO.
     
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  14. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    This is a dynamic that's as old as the faction itself. We did get a glimmer of creativity when Varuna was first released. For the first time ever, a PanO Sectorial had some very cool tools and rare rules + equipment to create a unique playstyle. It lasted for a good portion of last edition, before they nerfed the sh*t out of it. Now it's just been left behind by repeated nerfs, and we're back to the same dynamic that PanO is typically in.

    I'm less certain about MO. I'm not sure if it qualifies as different, or inspired. What do players think... Is MO a positive example of PanO design, or no?
     
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  15. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    IMHO it has all PanO problems, plus a overlapping units (but truth be told CB somewhat addressed it), but also straight up unneeded units (Infirmer? Hawkins ? Soon to be released Mother Superior ?)

    All of MO stuff is rather straith-forward, the closest thing to Zulu-Cobra Sensor+Camo+Triangluated fire level of "invention" is 360 AD Santiago with BSG..... (though his price is rather prohibitive to be popular)

    Another profile "feeling" somewhat "PanO" is OS with HRL + Auxbot. "Big" gun and "big flamer on robót buddy".

    And that's it, no standard Multi MMRs (why not BF or KoJ)

    I have some problem with new KotHS even though he is this luckier S5 out of both. (even his veteran status is actually usefull).

    The Magister (or new Teutons) are actually OK way or PanO WB but CB in their wisdom decided to butcher their representation on model with silly dumb-tubes.
     
  16. Something similar has happened to me.

    I've been a fan of PanOceania since the days when Infinity was just a range of «sci-fi miniatures with manga aesthetic»... before N1 even existed.

    I have tried and played vanilla and all the sectorials, but lately the frustration has led me to play more White Company, but something inside me said: «patching PanOceania with mercenary and Yu Jing troops... this is not the way.»

    Honestly, I'm seriously considering leaving PanOceania (I can't say if temporarily or permanently) and explore other things... I'm really looking forward to seeing the Steel Phalanx rework.
     
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  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    MO is as frustrating as it can get while looking good at a glance.
    Nothing really fits together between LT, link limitations and MO is one of the very few Sectorials that feels the AVA limit on one of their Core troopers (who as a result can't gain full Core bonus).
    I still think it's worse off relative to the meta around it, than the early N3 Hospitaler+Magister Core with AVA3 Fusiliers to hide a Lt and serve as Order battery.
    They've been updated in a significant manner about 5 times since then and none of them made progress on MO's actual problems.

    Vanilla is the opposite, wasn't in a good place for all of N3. The further N4 progresses the better it gets. Being as bloated as a Vanilla army home to 5 Sectorials, I wasn't expecting troops like Beasthunters, Uma or Diggers to show up and expand options (or flat out be better than existing ones). Add in double Duo capability to increase efficiency and help with missions like BTV.

    Impact on Sval feels relly bad. They had their thing and honestly there wasn't much missing to make them good. Now they're back to the dumpster they just crawled out of after N4 hit.

    SAA basically only lost the Orc/Bagh for the cheap Core, Regular isn't quite as good, but cheaper and in a slightly less dangerous environment. They keep staying relevant despite no attention whatsoever.

    NCA is getting there. Uma fills a massive gap in their toolkit, Losing 2BS on the Orc ARO piece hurts yet again, but I was already running fusilier MSRs as Swiss bait beforehand when points are tight. Bolt Core is now scarier than ever compared to the playing field (and gained Uma to make them a lot more threatening in the midfield). All Aquila, Swiss and TAG Profiles benefit from the nerfed Coreteams.
     
    #37 Teslarod, Apr 7, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
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  18. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    The thing i like about Shock is that it fits both of its TAGs very easily, and both of those TAGs are excellent. Additionally, I think it has one of the strongest Haris options we have... Bagh Mari + Bulleteer + Acon Machinist. So you can do Burst 5 Bagh Mari Gunner, with Burst 3 Bulleteer Shotgun, and the Machinist to keep it healthy. Or Bulleteer Spitfire, Bagh Mari's shotgun, Machinist. That's a wicked team alongside a TAG, with Regulars and Fugazi making a backline that's far greater than the sum of its inexpensive parts. From there, you have points to specialize for the mission... Nagas, Dart, whatever.
     
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  19. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I've joked about it before but I'll repeat it, White Company is the best Pano sectorial. We get great Yu Jing/Merc units to fill in the gaps in Pano force and still get to keep a decent TAG. Its got the high tech feel we expect from Pano but without the weakness. Its main weakness is its a rather expensive units but its still far from the most expensive force and its backed up by cheap Fusiliers.
     
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  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Oh yes, missed the fact of them having Seraph+ ...
     
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